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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2008, 02:58 PM
timinganalyzer
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

Hello All,

The TimingAnalyzer can be used to quickly and easily draw timing
diagrams.
Signals, clocks, buses, delays, constraints, and states are easily
added
from the GUI.

It can also be used to quickly do a timing analysis and check for
timing faults. Minimum, typical, and worst case analysis can be
performed.
Delays and constraints are easily specified and changed to see if
faster
clocks or slower parts can be used without any timing faults.

There are 3 editions planned. The Free Edition(FE), the Standard
Edition(SE),
and the Professional Edition(PE).

You can download the Free Edition now and read all about the
TimingAnalyzer at:

www.timing-diagrams.com

Comments and feedback are welcome at

[email protected]

Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-02-2008, 11:40 PM
Andy Peters
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 2, 5:58 am, timinganalyzer <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> The TimingAnalyzer can be used to quickly and easily draw timing
> diagrams.
> Signals, clocks, buses, delays, constraints, and states are easily
> added
> from the GUI.
>
> It can also be used to quickly do a timing analysis and check for
> timing faults. Minimum, typical, and worst case analysis can be
> performed.
> Delays and constraints are easily specified and changed to see if
> faster
> clocks or slower parts can be used without any timing faults.
>
> There are 3 editions planned. The Free Edition(FE), the Standard
> Edition(SE),
> and the Professional Edition(PE).
>
> You can download the Free Edition now and read all about the
> TimingAnalyzer at:
>
> www.timing-diagrams.com
>
> Comments and feedback are welcome at
>
> [email protected]


Hey, it's back!

It's good to see that this hasn't died. The commercial alternatives
are WAAAAAY too expensive.

-a
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2008, 02:37 AM
timinganalyzer
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 2, 5:40 pm, Andy Peters <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 2, 5:58 am, timinganalyzer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hello All,

>
> > The TimingAnalyzer can be used to quickly and easily draw timing
> > diagrams.
> > Signals, clocks, buses, delays, constraints, and states are easily
> > added
> > from the GUI.

>
> > It can also be used to quickly do a timing analysis and check for
> > timing faults. Minimum, typical, and worst case analysis can be
> > performed.
> > Delays and constraints are easily specified and changed to see if
> > faster
> > clocks or slower parts can be used without any timing faults.

>
> > There are 3 editions planned. The Free Edition(FE), the Standard
> > Edition(SE),
> > and the Professional Edition(PE).

>
> > You can download the Free Edition now and read all about the
> > TimingAnalyzer at:

>
> >www.timing-diagrams.com

>
> > Comments and feedback are welcome at

>
> > [email protected]

>
> Hey, it's back!
>
> It's good to see that this hasn't died. The commercial alternatives
> are WAAAAAY too expensive.
>
> -a


Yes, it's alive and doing well, and yes the competition is expensive.
The TimingAnalyzer will not be. I'm trying very hard to make it as
easy as
possible to use.

Please feel free to request new features or suggest feature
improvements.

Regards,
Dan
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2008, 07:36 PM
rickman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 2, 8:37 pm, timinganalyzer <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 2, 5:40 pm, Andy Peters <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 2, 5:58 am,timinganalyzer<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > Hello All,

>
> > > TheTimingAnalyzercan be used to quickly and easily draw timing
> > > diagrams.
> > > Signals, clocks, buses, delays, constraints, and states are easily
> > > added
> > > from the GUI.

>
> > > It can also be used to quickly do a timing analysis and check for
> > > timing faults. Minimum, typical, and worst case analysis can be
> > > performed.
> > > Delays and constraints are easily specified and changed to see if
> > > faster
> > > clocks or slower parts can be used without any timing faults.

>
> > > There are 3 editions planned. The Free Edition(FE), the Standard
> > > Edition(SE),
> > > and the Professional Edition(PE).

>
> > > You can download the Free Edition now and read all about the
> > >TimingAnalyzerat:

>
> > >www.timing-diagrams.com

>
> > > Comments and feedback are welcome at

>
> > > [email protected]

>
> > Hey, it's back!

>
> > It's good to see that this hasn't died. The commercial alternatives
> > are WAAAAAY too expensive.

>
> > -a

>
> Yes, it's alive and doing well, and yes the competition is expensive.
> TheTimingAnalyzerwill not be. I'm trying very hard to make it as
> easy as
> possible to use.
>
> Please feel free to request new features or suggest feature
> improvements.
>
> Regards,
> Dan


I installed the program and it ran once. But when I try to run it a
second time, it will not start. Any ideas?
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2008, 08:07 PM
rickman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 4, 1:36 pm, rickman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 2, 8:37 pm, timinganalyzer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 2, 5:40 pm, Andy Peters <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > On Jun 2, 5:58 am,timinganalyzer<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > > Hello All,

>
> > > > TheTimingAnalyzercan be used to quickly and easily draw timing
> > > > diagrams.
> > > > Signals, clocks, buses, delays, constraints, and states are easily
> > > > added
> > > > from the GUI.

>
> > > > It can also be used to quickly do a timing analysis and check for
> > > > timing faults. Minimum, typical, and worst case analysis can be
> > > > performed.
> > > > Delays and constraints are easily specified and changed to see if
> > > > faster
> > > > clocks or slower parts can be used without any timing faults.

>
> > > > There are 3 editions planned. The Free Edition(FE), the Standard
> > > > Edition(SE),
> > > > and the Professional Edition(PE).

>
> > > > You can download the Free Edition now and read all about the
> > > >TimingAnalyzerat:

>
> > > >www.timing-diagrams.com

>
> > > > Comments and feedback are welcome at

>
> > > > [email protected]

>
> > > Hey, it's back!

>
> > > It's good to see that this hasn't died. The commercial alternatives
> > > are WAAAAAY too expensive.

>
> > > -a

>
> > Yes, it's alive and doing well, and yes the competition is expensive.
> > TheTimingAnalyzerwill not be. I'm trying very hard to make it as
> > easy as
> > possible to use.

>
> > Please feel free to request new features or suggest feature
> > improvements.

>
> > Regards,
> > Dan

>
> I installed the program and it ran once. But when I try to run it a
> second time, it will not start. Any ideas?


To get some info on why it won't run I ran it in a DOS box.

TimingAnalyzer Version 0.82 Free Edition(FE)
OS Name = Windows 2000
OS Version = 5.0
OS Arch = x86
Java Version = 1.6.0_03
installDir = C:\Program Files\TimingAnalyzer_b82
Settings File = C:\Program Files\TimingAnalyzer_b82\settings
\ta_defaults

Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException
at org.dmad.ta.TimingDiagram.findEdge(TimingDiagram.j ava:2238)
at org.dmad.ta.TimFileIO.readDelay(TimFileIO.java:481 )
at org.dmad.ta.TimFileIO.processFileRequest(TimFileIO .java:
1245)
at org.dmad.ta.TimFileIO.<init>(TimFileIO.java:103)
at org.dmad.ta.TimingDiagram.openFile(TimingDiagram.j ava:3641)
at
org.dmad.ta.TimingAnalyzer.openRecentFile(TimingAn alyzer.java:1682)
at
org.dmad.ta.TimingAnalyzer.loadOpenFileList(Timing Analyzer.java:1511)

at org.dmad.ta.TimingAnalyzer.<init>(TimingAnalyzer.j ava:314)
at org.dmad.ta.TimingAnalyzer.main(TimingAnalyzer.jav a:138)
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2008, 09:44 PM
rickman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 2, 8:58 am, timinganalyzer <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> The TimingAnalyzer can be used to quickly and easily draw timing
> diagrams.
> Signals, clocks, buses, delays, constraints, and states are easily
> added
> from the GUI.
>
> It can also be used to quickly do a timing analysis and check for
> timing faults. Minimum, typical, and worst case analysis can be
> performed.
> Delays and constraints are easily specified and changed to see if
> faster
> clocks or slower parts can be used without any timing faults.
>
> There are 3 editions planned. The Free Edition(FE), the Standard
> Edition(SE),
> and the Professional Edition(PE).
>
> You can download the Free Edition now and read all about the
> TimingAnalyzer at:
>
> www.timing-diagrams.com
>
> Comments and feedback are welcome at
>
> [email protected]


I spent about 5 minutes working with this program before I gave up.
My reason is not the problem posted below, but because of the user
interface decisions made. I don't know why every new program has to
reinvent something about the user interface. There is a standard call
Common User Interface (CUI) that is even documented by Microsoft,
IIRC.

The one big difference that hit me up side my head was the way the
Cntl key is used counter-intuitively with mouse clicks for
selections. If you click on one item it is selected. If you click on
an second item, it is *added* to the selections. To deselect
something you have to either press the Cntl key while clicking on it
or you have to use the ESC key. I have *never* seen a program use
this sort of selection mechanism. I have seen variations on how you
select multiple, but every other program I have ever worked with, the
default action of clicking a new thing while an old thing was selected
was to deselect the first thing and to select the new thing.

It was more than once that I tried to move some things and ended up
with a mess because extra moves kept happening. Combine this with the
lack of a working undo feature and I ended up rather frustrated and
gave up. I was looking for something that would save me time over a
program like Visio.

I suggest that the author get some references on CUI or better yet,
use some other programs with graphical interfaces and go with the
flow. It is so much more productive than trying to retrain the
world... if you don't believe me, just look down at your keyboard. Do
you think the keyboard layout we all use was a good idea? It's just
easier to continue to use it than it is to retrain everyone that is
using it now.

Rick
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2008, 02:52 PM
timinganalyzer
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 4, 3:44 pm, rickman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 2, 8:58 am, timinganalyzer <[email protected]> wrote:
>



>
>
> > Hello All,

>
> > The TimingAnalyzer can be used to quickly and easily draw timing
> > diagrams.
> > Signals, clocks, buses, delays, constraints, and states are easily
> > added
> > from the GUI.

>
> > It can also be used to quickly do a timing analysis and check for
> > timing faults. Minimum, typical, and worst case analysis can be
> > performed.
> > Delays and constraints are easily specified and changed to see if
> > faster
> > clocks or slower parts can be used without any timing faults.

>
> > There are 3 editions planned. The Free Edition(FE), the Standard
> > Edition(SE),
> > and the Professional Edition(PE).

>
> > You can download the Free Edition now and read all about the
> > TimingAnalyzer at:

>
> >www.timing-diagrams.com

>
> > Comments and feedback are welcome at

>
> > [email protected]

>
> I spent about 5 minutes working with this program before I gave up.
> My reason is not the problem posted below, but because of the user
> interface decisions made. I don't know why every new program has to
> reinvent something about the user interface. There is a standard call
> Common User Interface (CUI) that is even documented by Microsoft,
> IIRC.
>
> The one big difference that hit me up side my head was the way the
> Cntl key is used counter-intuitively with mouse clicks for
> selections. If you click on one item it is selected. If you click on
> an second item, it is *added* to the selections. To deselect
> something you have to either press the Cntl key while clicking on it
> or you have to use the ESC key. I have *never* seen a program use
> this sort of selection mechanism. I have seen variations on how you
> select multiple, but every other program I have ever worked with, the
> default action of clicking a new thing while an old thing was selected
> was to deselect the first thing and to select the new thing.
>
> It was more than once that I tried to move some things and ended up
> with a mess because extra moves kept happening. Combine this with the
> lack of a working undo feature and I ended up rather frustrated and
> gave up. I was looking for something that would save me time over a
> program like Visio.
>
> I suggest that the author get some references on CUI or better yet,
> use some other programs with graphical interfaces and go with the
> flow. It is so much more productive than trying to retrain the
> world... if you don't believe me, just look down at your keyboard. Do
> you think the keyboard layout we all use was a good idea? It's just
> easier to continue to use it than it is to retrain everyone that is
> using it now.
>
> Rick



Hello Rick,

The goal is to make drawing timing diagrams as easy as possible, and
I do agree about sticking to standard GUI practices, and that should
be
done for each OS.

The program is in beta testing and I know it's not perfect but don't
forget to look at the big picture. Not only can you draw timing
diagrams,
you can do timing analysis and show margins and find faults in
designs,
you can write scripts that automatically draw the diagrams so complex
diagrams can be made with one command, or test vectors or testbenches
can
be generated with one command. If you need to document simulation
results,
it can read VCD formated files, then you can make annotated timing
diagrams from
simulations and include them in design documentation. With actual
logic
functions you can simulate gates, registers, counters, shift
registers, and
other logic functions which can help when deciding if the logic if
fast
enough or the clocks are to fast.

So, keeping all that in mind, if beta users make valid and
constructive suggestions
for improvements and new features, they will incorporated into the
program. Most all
of them will be added before the final release 1.0.

-Dan






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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2008, 03:14 PM
Brian Drummond
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT), rickman <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Jun 2, 8:58 am, timinganalyzer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> The TimingAnalyzer can be used to quickly and easily draw timing
>> diagrams.
>> Signals, clocks, buses, delays, constraints, and states are easily
>> added
>> from the GUI.


>> www.timing-diagrams.com
>>
>> Comments and feedback are welcome at
>>
>> [email protected]

>
>I spent about 5 minutes working with this program before I gave up.
>My reason is not the problem posted below, but because of the user
>interface decisions made. I don't know why every new program has to
>reinvent something about the user interface. There is a standard call
>Common User Interface (CUI) that is even documented by Microsoft,
>IIRC.


Do you work in the NHS, or for one of their equipment suppliers?
All the CUI references (including http://www.mscui.net/ seem to be
associated with the health care sector.

If you are thinking of some other user interface specification, can you
help find it?

(Not that a specification for the medical industry couldn't be more
generally useful, but it seems unlikely to cover complex drawing tools)

- Brian
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2008, 05:02 PM
rickman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 5, 9:14 am, Brian Drummond <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT), rickman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Jun 2, 8:58 am, timinganalyzer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Hello All,

>
> >> The TimingAnalyzer can be used to quickly and easily draw timing
> >> diagrams.
> >> Signals, clocks, buses, delays, constraints, and states are easily
> >> added
> >> from the GUI.
> >>www.timing-diagrams.com

>
> >> Comments and feedback are welcome at

>
> >> [email protected]

>
> >I spent about 5 minutes working with this program before I gave up.
> >My reason is not the problem posted below, but because of the user
> >interface decisions made. I don't know why every new program has to
> >reinvent something about the user interface. There is a standard call
> >Common User Interface (CUI) that is even documented by Microsoft,
> >IIRC.

>
> Do you work in the NHS, or for one of their equipment suppliers?
> All the CUI references (includinghttp://www.mscui.net/seem to be
> associated with the health care sector.


I have no idea what you are talking about... I am an electronic
design engineer and have never worked in the health care sector. What
exactly is NHS? Is that a government agency or a company? BTW, I
typoed above "call" should have been "called". CUI is a windows
standard as far as I know. I guess maybe it is more general, but I
have only heard the term used in the context of Windows.


> If you are thinking of some other user interface specification, can you
> help find it?


Doesn't Microsoft provide a CUI for Windows? If nothing else, all you
have to do is fire up most *any* program to learn how mouse clicks
work to select items. Having the default action of a click to be
"adding" items to the selection is a new twist. Most programs use
Cntl-Left Click to cumulatively select items (or often to unselect
them too). Unselection is typically done by clicking on *anything*
else including nothing. So if I click on object A and then click on
object B and drag, I would not expect object A to be dragged along
with B. This happened to me with this program. Object A was dragged
off the view and the undo didn't work. I couldn't find a way to
expand the view, so I ended up with a drawing that had things in it
that I couldn't delete or see. I ended up closing the program (partly
out of frustration and partly out of time constraints) and let it save
the file. I tried to start the program up again and it would not
run. The author says the drawing file is now corrupt. When the
program auto-opens it on startup, it crashes.

Independant of the UI issues, a program really shouldn't crash when it
reads a data file... of any nature. Of course that is a theoretical
goal and can be difficult to achieve in practice. But certainly
crashing on startup without visible error messages is not a good thing
either. I had to start it from a DOS box to get anything useful from
it... maybe that is more of a Java issue... and don't get me started
complaining about Java. Does *anything* written in Java actually
work?

I'm really not trying to bash the tool. I expect there are those who
like it and use it. I have often wanted a good tool for drawing
waveforms and timing diagrams. But the very first and most important
feature is that it has to be easy and intuitive to use. I feel that I
should be able to sit down and use it without reading a manual or
taking a tutorial. Many years ago I did that with a Mac! I expect
most people do that with the iPhone and iPod. A timing diagram editor
is not a complex tool. I should be able to draw simple waveforms
without learning a complex interface. I currently use Visio and I
find that to be a burdensome tool for simple things. It also has its
own ways in which it doesn't work. I just wanted something a bit
simpler.


> (Not that a specification for the medical industry couldn't be more
> generally useful, but it seems unlikely to cover complex drawing tools)


I agree. I'm not sure why you mention this, but it sounds right.

Do you know of a common denominator for tools with graphical
interfaces?

BTW, as long as I am ragging on the world of software. I don't like
excessive movements of the mouse and switching back and forth with the
keyboard. One of the things I have done to minimize movements is to
move my windows toolbar to the top of the screen next to the menu of
most programs. I find this so much easier to use than dragging the
mouse around from top to bottom of the screen when I want to select
between programs (which I seem to do a lot).

The problem is that *many* programs (including Visio) don't understand
that the windows toolbar is at the top now. New windows open with the
title bar at the top of the screen, under the toolbar. Worse, some
programs remember that they were at the top of screen, but remember it
correctly (as being X pixels above the visible edge). Then when they
restart incorrectly (or the dialog is reopened) the window is that
much *more* off the top of the screen!!! With those applications I
have to drag them well back onto the visible screen and try to
remember to drag them back toward the middle before I close when they
start drifting off the top again.

Is it time to start cutting off fingers of programmers who continually
mess up things like this? After a few mistakes they will be much less
proficient at pumping out code (producing fewer bad programs) and
after 10 mistakes... well I guess they could still type with their
noses... 8^*

Just a thought...

Rick

PS I am currently struggling with the Aldec simulator which has it's
own set of problems. I'm actually here to complain about that, but
I'll do it in another thread.

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2008, 06:28 PM
Robert Miles
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams


"rickman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]m...
[snip]
> Independant of the UI issues, a program really shouldn't crash when it
> reads a data file... of any nature. Of course that is a theoretical
> goal and can be difficult to achieve in practice. But certainly
> crashing on startup without visible error messages is not a good thing
> either. I had to start it from a DOS box to get anything useful from
> it... maybe that is more of a Java issue... and don't get me started
> complaining about Java. Does *anything* written in Java actually
> work?
>

I suggest that any program for Windows Vista that uses Java should
start with a check to see if Java is even installed, and if so, whether
the version installed is suitable for what the program needs. My version
of Vista came without Java, and the Microsoft version is no longer
available. I installed the Sun version, but still have problems with
getting
all the programs that use Java to run correctly.

http://www.java.com/en/


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2008, 06:48 PM
KJ
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 5, 9:14 am, Brian Drummond <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT), rickman <[email protected]>
>
> Do you work in the NHS, or for one of their equipment suppliers?
> All the CUI references (includinghttp://www.mscui.net/seem to be
> associated with the health care sector.
>

I think what rickman was trying to remember was the 'Common User
Access' or 'CUA' developed by IBM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access

KJ
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2008, 06:48 PM
Robert Miles
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams


"Robert Miles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "rickman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]m...
> [snip]
>> Independant of the UI issues, a program really shouldn't crash when it
>> reads a data file... of any nature. Of course that is a theoretical
>> goal and can be difficult to achieve in practice. But certainly
>> crashing on startup without visible error messages is not a good thing
>> either. I had to start it from a DOS box to get anything useful from
>> it... maybe that is more of a Java issue... and don't get me started
>> complaining about Java. Does *anything* written in Java actually
>> work?
>>

> I suggest that any program for Windows Vista that uses Java should
> start with a check to see if Java is even installed, and if so, whether
> the version installed is suitable for what the program needs. My version
> of Vista came without Java, and the Microsoft version is no longer
> available. I installed the Sun version, but still have problems with
> getting
> all the programs that use Java to run correctly.
>
> http://www.java.com/en/
>

When getting the URL for that last message, I noticed that Sun now has
a version of Java newer than the one I had before, and decided to install
this update. The Google Toolbar program is offered at the same site,
so I thought I'd let you know that if you're using the Windows Mail
program that comes with Vista, you should avoid installing the Google
Toolbar program unless you want to see what problems it causes in
Windows Mail, although it often doesn't cause them immediately.
Web sites that offer to let you do Google searches don't cause the same
problems.


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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2008, 06:53 PM
KJ
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 5, 9:14 am, Brian Drummond <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT), rickman <[email protected]>
>
> Do you work in the NHS, or for one of their equipment suppliers?
> All the CUI references (includinghttp://www.mscui.net/seem to be
> associated with the health care sector.
>

I think what rickman was trying to remember was the 'Common User
Access' or 'CUA' developed by IBM.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access

KJ
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2008, 07:12 PM
rickman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 5, 12:53 pm, KJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 5, 9:14 am, Brian Drummond <[email protected]>
> wrote:> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT), rickman <[email protected]>
>
> > Do you work in the NHS, or for one of their equipment suppliers?
> > All the CUI references (includinghttp://www.mscui.net/seemto be
> > associated with the health care sector.

>
> I think what rickman was trying to remember was the 'Common User
> Access' or 'CUA' developed by IBM.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access
>
> KJ


I had the initials right, but the name wrong. The wiki article you
link to calls it...

Windows Consistent User Interface standard (CUI),

Notice the wiki note that

CUA has never had significant impact on Unix terminal applications.

That explains a lot of why people don't tend to migrate between
Windows and *nix. I know that most open source programs that I have
tried seemed to me to have a bizarre user interface. I know that I am
more sensitive to this sort of thing than most people, but once I see
something that works well, I really, really hate to go back to poor
practices.

For the most part any new program should try to emulate the UI of the
other common programs out there, only altering features if it *really*
has a positive impact.

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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2008, 11:03 PM
Jim Granville
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

rickman wrote:
>
> Doesn't Microsoft provide a CUI for Windows? If nothing else, all you
> have to do is fire up most *any* program to learn how mouse clicks
> work to select items. Having the default action of a click to be
> "adding" items to the selection is a new twist. Most programs use
> Cntl-Left Click to cumulatively select items (or often to unselect
> them too). Unselection is typically done by clicking on *anything*
> else including nothing.


Yes, certainly the common EDA/CAD model is Click Selects, and ^Click
toggles the Selected flag on eash item. So you can add/delete
at will, from a selected set.

Some systems also then allow right-click Combine into a Group/Block.


> So if I click on object A and then click on
> object B and drag, I would not expect object A to be dragged along
> with B. This happened to me with this program. Object A was dragged
> off the view and the undo didn't work. I couldn't find a way to
> expand the view, so I ended up with a drawing that had things in it
> that I couldn't delete or see.


Better pgms have a Zoom Extents, to cover this type of problem.

> I ended up closing the program (partly
> out of frustration and partly out of time constraints) and let it save
> the file. I tried to start the program up again and it would not
> run. The author says the drawing file is now corrupt. When the
> program auto-opens it on startup, it crashes.


If this is easily reproduced, it should also be easy to fix.

-jg

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-05-2008, 11:26 PM
Andrew Smallshaw
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On 2008-06-05, rickman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 5, 9:14 am, Brian Drummond <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Do you work in the NHS, or for one of their equipment suppliers?
>> All the CUI references (includinghttp://www.mscui.net/seem to be
>> associated with the health care sector.

>
> I have no idea what you are talking about... I am an electronic
> design engineer and have never worked in the health care sector. What
> exactly is NHS? Is that a government agency or a company?


NHS = National Health Service, the state run healthcare provider
here in the UK. Unlike state healthcare provision in the US the
NHS is fairly comprehensive and covers the entire population (paid
for out of general taxation). As a result it is a massive organisation
- it dwarfs the entire Ministry of Defence, for instance. ISTR it
is Europe's biggest employer.

> I'm really not trying to bash the tool. I expect there are those who
> like it and use it. I have often wanted a good tool for drawing
> waveforms and timing diagrams. But the very first and most important
> feature is that it has to be easy and intuitive to use. I feel that I
> should be able to sit down and use it without reading a manual or
> taking a tutorial. Many years ago I did that with a Mac! I expect
> most people do that with the iPhone and iPod. A timing diagram editor
> is not a complex tool. I should be able to draw simple waveforms
> without learning a complex interface. I currently use Visio and I
> find that to be a burdensome tool for simple things. It also has its
> own ways in which it doesn't work. I just wanted something a bit
> simpler.


Interesting that you mention Macs. For many years Apple have
published user interface guidelines that document exactly how UIs
should behave. I recall looking through the one for the Newton a
few years ago and it was very prescriptive and quite forceful in
places. I remember it was full of things like "This UI component
has square corners. This other component has rounded corners. If
you need to reimplement them for some reason you stick to those
conventions or your users will be swamping your helpdesk with
support enquiries." This might not give designers as much leeway
to create "really cool" interfaces but I suspect it is more in
tune with what many users actually want.

This is also an area where Microsoft have completely lost the plot.
Since Windows 95 every major release of Windows has been accompanied
by a new interface. Applications are even worse - I don't know
how many style of toolbar have been played with over the last 15
years. Microsoft always make great play of the new interface but
who exactly does it benefit? Users are forced to learn new interfaces
every upgrade and application developers are forced to 'upgrade'
their programs with the new UI or risk being considered outdated.

The only people I can see benefiting are Microsoft themseleves (it
provides a very obvious reason to upgrade, even if it does lack
clear benefits) and hardware manufacturers (the upgrade needs newer
faster hardware). For all the talk of enhancing the user's experience
it seems obvious to me that MS don't give a shit about users. All
that matters is ensuring that the revenue keeps coming in from
repeated meaningless upgrades.

--
Andrew Smallshaw
[email protected]
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-06-2008, 09:05 AM
David Brown
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

rickman wrote:
> On Jun 5, 9:14 am, Brian Drummond <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT), rickman <[email protected]>
>> wrote:

<snip>
>>> I spent about 5 minutes working with this program before I gave up.
>>> My reason is not the problem posted below, but because of the user
>>> interface decisions made. I don't know why every new program has to
>>> reinvent something about the user interface. There is a standard call
>>> Common User Interface (CUI) that is even documented by Microsoft,
>>> IIRC.

>> Do you work in the NHS, or for one of their equipment suppliers?
>> All the CUI references (includinghttp://www.mscui.net/seem to be
>> associated with the health care sector.

>
> I have no idea what you are talking about... I am an electronic
> design engineer and have never worked in the health care sector. What
> exactly is NHS? Is that a government agency or a company? BTW, I
> typoed above "call" should have been "called". CUI is a windows
> standard as far as I know. I guess maybe it is more general, but I
> have only heard the term used in the context of Windows.
>


I'm guessing (from your time zone) that you're in the USA.

The "NHS" is the British "National Health Service". To people from the
UK, "medical", "health care", and "NHS" are synonymous - the private
health care is a very small minority there (mostly for people who want
to pay for comfier beds and better food, or vanity surgery).
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-06-2008, 02:58 PM
Jack
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Jun 2, 2:58 pm, timinganalyzer <[email protected]> wrote:

> There are 3 editions planned. The Free Edition(FE), the Standard
> Edition(SE),
> and the Professional Edition(PE).
>
> You can download the Free Edition now and read all about the
> TimingAnalyzer at:
>
> www.timing-diagrams.com
>
> Comments and feedback are welcome at
>
> [email protected]


Very, very interesting.

Thanks

Bye Jack
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-06-2008, 07:39 PM
Brian Drummond
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: ANNOUNCE:-- TimingAnalyzer Free Version -- Draw timing diagrams

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:48:45 -0700 (PDT), KJ <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Jun 5, 9:14 am, Brian Drummond <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 12:44:03 -0700 (PDT), rickman <[email protected]>
>>
>> Do you work in the NHS, or for one of their equipment suppliers?
>> All the CUI references (includinghttp://www.mscui.net/seem to be
>> associated with the health care sector.
>>

>I think what rickman was trying to remember was the 'Common User
>Access' or 'CUA' developed by IBM.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_User_Access


Probably was; that makes more sense.

All I could find searching for Microsoft and CUI (or Common User
Interface) was that healthcare stuff.

- Brian
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