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![[SI-LIST] Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias??](https://www.fpgacentral.com/group/iconimages/si-list/si-list-advantages-disadvantages-flooding-vias_ltr.gif)
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03-02-2009, 05:25 AM
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[SI-LIST] Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias??
Hi Gentleman,
Good Morning. I am working on a dense Aerospace Cockpit Control Board and I want to Flood all of my Vias as Vias Connecting to the Respective planes (Power & Gnd) is not having good connectivity through the Thermal Spokes. Flooding vias will help me gaining the required copper area for the Circuit. Via size used is .015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. Will this create any problem in the Component Assembling Process as some of the heat may pass through the planes and thus PCB may undergo Bow & Twist or expansion of the PCB. Please put your expertise thoughts on it. Thank you, Regards, Manatosh ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu 
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03-02-2009, 06:09 AM
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[SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias??
Thermal ties are appropriate when you want to limit the heat sinking,
such as with a TH component lead, where excessive heatsinking will make reliable soldering and desoldering difficult to impossible. Continuous pads are the norm for stitch vias. Typical thermal ties cover a minimum of 180 degrees arc. For instance if your antipads are 0.035" 0.015" ties would cover 185 degrees arc at the outside of the antipad. Are you sure that thermals insert too much resistance? If they do, I would be concerned about the current carrying capacity of the via barrels. Steve ManatoshGBaidya (AT) Eaton (DOT) com wrote: > Hi Gentleman, > > Good Morning. > I am working on a dense Aerospace Cockpit Control Board and I want to > Flood all of my Vias as Vias Connecting to the Respective planes (Power > & Gnd) is not having good connectivity through the Thermal Spokes. > Flooding vias will help me gaining the required copper area for the > Circuit. > Via size used is .015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. > Will this create any problem in the Component Assembling Process as some > of the heat may pass through the planes and thus PCB may undergo Bow & > Twist or expansion of the PCB. > > Please put your expertise thoughts on it. > > Thank you, > Regards, > Manatosh > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (866) 675-4630 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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03-02-2009, 06:30 AM
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[SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias??
Hi Steve,
Thank you for your prompt reply. Here I am only concerned much about the Via through holes from Top to Bottom Layer. I using almost all of the SMD Components except few Through Hole Inductors & DC-DC Converter. You are right,Thermals create a amount of Resistance but is okay to me. I am not using Vias for Testing also. I am adding separate Test Pads.All of my vias are closed with Mask. If I flood all of my vias rather than using thermal, will it cause any problem in the Assembling process. Will it pick heat through vias and circulate the same heat in all the plane layers due to flooding (Full contact with the Plane).Here Heat dissipation will not happen.Heat will spread out in all the Plane Layers. FYI.. Via size is small i.e 015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. Total amount of current I have right now is 1Amp. Pls advise me thereby Regards, Manatosh -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:40 AM To: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias?? Thermal ties are appropriate when you want to limit the heat sinking, such as with a TH component lead, where excessive heatsinking will make reliable soldering and desoldering difficult to impossible. Continuous pads are the norm for stitch vias. Typical thermal ties cover a minimum of 180 degrees arc. For instance if your antipads are 0.035" 0.015" ties would cover 185 degrees arc at the outside of the antipad. Are you sure that thermals insert too much resistance? If they do, I would be concerned about the current carrying capacity of the via barrels. Steve ManatoshGBaidya (AT) Eaton (DOT) com wrote: > Hi Gentleman, > > Good Morning. > I am working on a dense Aerospace Cockpit Control Board and I want to > Flood all of my Vias as Vias Connecting to the Respective planes > (Power & Gnd) is not having good connectivity through the Thermal Spokes. > Flooding vias will help me gaining the required copper area for the > Circuit. > Via size used is .015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. > Will this create any problem in the Component Assembling Process as > some of the heat may pass through the planes and thus PCB may undergo > Bow & Twist or expansion of the PCB. > > Please put your expertise thoughts on it. > > Thank you, > Regards, > Manatosh > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (866) 675-4630 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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03-02-2009, 07:56 AM
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[SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias??
The reason for thermals is to facilitate TH solder / desolder. SMD
parts usually have no problem provided surface thermal relief to solder pads is included as necessary. With a TH part it is different. Intimate contact between a TH lead and a big planar heat sink inside the PCB multiplies the amount of heat power needed to bring the lead end up to soldering / desoldering temperature. Steve. ManatoshGBaidya (AT) Eaton (DOT) com wrote: > Hi Steve, > Thank you for your prompt reply. > Here I am only concerned much about the Via through holes from Top to > Bottom Layer. I using almost all of the SMD Components except few > Through Hole Inductors & DC-DC Converter. > You are right,Thermals create a amount of Resistance but is okay to me. > I am not using Vias for Testing also. I am adding separate Test Pads.All > of my vias are closed with Mask. > If I flood all of my vias rather than using thermal, will it cause any > problem in the Assembling process. Will it pick heat through vias and > circulate the same heat in all the plane layers due to flooding (Full > contact with the Plane).Here Heat dissipation will not happen.Heat will > spread out in all the Plane Layers. > > FYI.. Via size is small i.e 015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. > > Total amount of current I have right now is 1Amp. > > Pls advise me thereby > > Regards, > > Manatosh > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] > On Behalf Of steve weir > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:40 AM > To: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias?? > > Thermal ties are appropriate when you want to limit the heat sinking, > such as with a TH component lead, where excessive heatsinking will make > reliable soldering and desoldering difficult to impossible. Continuous > pads are the norm for stitch vias. > > Typical thermal ties cover a minimum of 180 degrees arc. For instance > if your antipads are 0.035" 0.015" ties would cover 185 degrees arc at > the outside of the antipad. Are you sure that thermals insert too much > resistance? If they do, I would be concerned about the current carrying > capacity of the via barrels. > > Steve > ManatoshGBaidya (AT) Eaton (DOT) com wrote: > >> Hi Gentleman, >> >> Good Morning. >> I am working on a dense Aerospace Cockpit Control Board and I want to >> Flood all of my Vias as Vias Connecting to the Respective planes >> (Power & Gnd) is not having good connectivity through the Thermal >> > Spokes. > >> Flooding vias will help me gaining the required copper area for the >> Circuit. >> Via size used is .015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. >> Will this create any problem in the Component Assembling Process as >> some of the heat may pass through the planes and thus PCB may undergo >> Bow & Twist or expansion of the PCB. >> >> Please put your expertise thoughts on it. >> >> Thank you, >> Regards, >> Manatosh >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Steve Weir > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > 121 North River Drive > Narragansett, RI 02882 > > California office > (866) 675-4630 Business > (707) 780-1951 Fax > > Main office > (401) 284-1827 Business > (401) 284-1840 Fax > > Oregon office > (503) 430-1065 Business > (503) 430-1285 Fax > > http://www.teraspeed.com > This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property > of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting > Group LLC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (866) 675-4630 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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03-02-2009, 01:30 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias??
Hi Manatosh,
If you design a cockpit control board, it does not sound like a home hobby project, so you should have ready access to the people who are going to fabricate and assemble the board. The board fabricator should comment on concerns they may have about board warping and bowing, though using thermal relief patterns or solid via hits probably will make very little difference; symmetrical stackup and equalizing the copper coverage in the layers are the primary factors. If and where you use only SMD parts, the thermal connection makes no difference in the solderability of those parts. However, if you cover the via openings at both ends with a solid polymer solder mask, it most probably will be blown away during the assembly process as the trapped air expands. I dont think that thermal-relief connections would help with this. So to me the first question seems to be: why would you want to cover the via openings: any special reason? Regards, Istvan Novak SUN Microsystems ManatoshGBaidya (AT) Eaton (DOT) com wrote: > Hi Steve, > Thank you for your prompt reply. > Here I am only concerned much about the Via through holes from Top to > Bottom Layer. I using almost all of the SMD Components except few > Through Hole Inductors & DC-DC Converter. > You are right,Thermals create a amount of Resistance but is okay to me. > I am not using Vias for Testing also. I am adding separate Test Pads.All > of my vias are closed with Mask. > If I flood all of my vias rather than using thermal, will it cause any > problem in the Assembling process. Will it pick heat through vias and > circulate the same heat in all the plane layers due to flooding (Full > contact with the Plane).Here Heat dissipation will not happen.Heat will > spread out in all the Plane Layers. > > FYI.. Via size is small i.e 015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. > > Total amount of current I have right now is 1Amp. > > Pls advise me thereby > > Regards, > > Manatosh > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] > On Behalf Of steve weir > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 11:40 AM > To: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias?? > > Thermal ties are appropriate when you want to limit the heat sinking, > such as with a TH component lead, where excessive heatsinking will make > reliable soldering and desoldering difficult to impossible. Continuous > pads are the norm for stitch vias. > > Typical thermal ties cover a minimum of 180 degrees arc. For instance > if your antipads are 0.035" 0.015" ties would cover 185 degrees arc at > the outside of the antipad. Are you sure that thermals insert too much > resistance? If they do, I would be concerned about the current carrying > capacity of the via barrels. > > Steve > ManatoshGBaidya (AT) Eaton (DOT) com wrote: > >> Hi Gentleman, >> >> Good Morning. >> I am working on a dense Aerospace Cockpit Control Board and I want to >> Flood all of my Vias as Vias Connecting to the Respective planes >> (Power & Gnd) is not having good connectivity through the Thermal >> > Spokes. > >> Flooding vias will help me gaining the required copper area for the >> Circuit. >> Via size used is .015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. >> Will this create any problem in the Component Assembling Process as >> some of the heat may pass through the planes and thus PCB may undergo >> Bow & Twist or expansion of the PCB. >> >> Please put your expertise thoughts on it. >> >> Thank you, >> Regards, >> Manatosh >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Steve Weir > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > 121 North River Drive > Narragansett, RI 02882 > > California office > (866) 675-4630 Business > (707) 780-1951 Fax > > Main office > (401) 284-1827 Business > (401) 284-1840 Fax > > Oregon office > (503) 430-1065 Business > (503) 430-1285 Fax > > http://www.teraspeed.com > This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property > of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------ > Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting > Group LLC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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03-02-2009, 03:19 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias??
Manatosh.
One of the things you could do is use 2oz. copper. With 2 oz. copper you will have to make all your spacing checks with min 0.010" clearance. Because of the density of the board your doing this may or may not work, or you may be too far along to try this but 2 oz. copper but its great for thermal dissapation. 1.5 oz copper is also available last time I talked to fabricators. From your message I think your making a thermal path. If your building a thermal path, one thing I have done in the past is settup special vias for thermal dissapation. These special types of vias don't have thermal spokes and drill holes can be much larger to facilitate a good copper fill. Having problems with the board warping you may want to think about how well balanced the copper routing is distributed from top to bottom layers. Too much copper on the top layers and then very few routes or planes on the bottom layers with cause your board to warp towards the layers with excessive copper. Try to distribute your routing and copper planes evenly from top to bottom of your design. Another thing one can do is ask your fabricator to add thieving on layers where copper is sparse. From my experience the fabricator will do this as an added bonus. Always put this request in your fab notes and your on your way. Balance is always a good thing when designing boards and circuits. Good luck. Richard Jungert http://www.rjungert.com 170 board designs 3D EM Simulations to 50Ghz with Sonnet S parameter evaluations 2 US patents > Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 22:09:47 -0800 > From: weirsi (AT) ipblox (DOT) com > To: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias?? > > Thermal ties are appropriate when you want to limit the heat sinking, > such as with a TH component lead, where excessive heatsinking will make > reliable soldering and desoldering difficult to impossible. Continuous > pads are the norm for stitch vias. > > Typical thermal ties cover a minimum of 180 degrees arc. For instance > if your antipads are 0.035" 0.015" ties would cover 185 degrees arc at > the outside of the antipad. Are you sure that thermals insert too much > resistance? If they do, I would be concerned about the current carrying > capacity of the via barrels. > > Steve > ManatoshGBaidya (AT) Eaton (DOT) com wrote: > > Hi Gentleman, > > > > Good Morning. > > I am working on a dense Aerospace Cockpit Control Board and I want to > > Flood all of my Vias as Vias Connecting to the Respective planes (Power > > & Gnd) is not having good connectivity through the Thermal Spokes. > > Flooding vias will help me gaining the required copper area for the > > Circuit. > > Via size used is .015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. > > Will this create any problem in the Component Assembling Process as some > > of the heat may pass through the planes and thus PCB may undergo Bow & > > Twist or expansion of the PCB. > > > > Please put your expertise thoughts on it. > > > > Thank you, > > Regards, > > Manatosh > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > For help: > > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > > List technical documents are available at: > > http://www.si-list.net > > > > List archives are viewable at: > > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Steve Weir > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > 121 North River Drive > Narragansett, RI 02882 > > California office > (866) 675-4630 Business > (707) 780-1951 Fax > > Main office > (401) 284-1827 Business > (401) 284-1840 Fax > > Oregon office > (503) 430-1065 Business > (503) 430-1285 Fax > > http://www.teraspeed.com > This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > __________________________________________________ _______________ Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmai...0faster_032009 ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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03-02-2009, 03:28 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias??
You don't have anything to worry about.
The only reason for thermal relief is to reduce the amount of heat needed for soldering/desoldering. Vias aren't considered soldered connections, and many designers flood them One of the only reasons for not flooding them is that the spoked connections are easier to see in plots and gerber data (flooded connections are difficult to "see"). Lamination and Soldering temperatures are much higher than your normal operating temperature (or else you have a bad design!) so any bow and twist will happen at the extremes, not during normal operation. In other words, you'll see it before it ever gets used in the field. If it doesn't warp during assembly, it won't warp later on. Heat will flow through your planes regardless, and nothing about vias contributes to bow and twist. As a matter of fact, getting more heat onto the planes will REDUCE your via barrel stress Jack .. On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:25 PM, <ManatoshGBaidya (AT) eaton (DOT) com> wrote: > Hi Gentleman, > > Good Morning. > I am working on a dense Aerospace Cockpit Control Board and I want to > Flood all of my Vias as Vias Connecting to the Respective planes (Power > & Gnd) is not having good connectivity through the Thermal Spokes. > Flooding vias will help me gaining the required copper area for the > Circuit. > Via size used is .015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. > Will this create any problem in the Component Assembling Process as some > of the heat may pass through the planes and thus PCB may undergo Bow & > Twist or expansion of the PCB. > > Please put your expertise thoughts on it. > > Thank you, > Regards, > Manatosh > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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03-02-2009, 04:45 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias??
I agree with the advice given by Jack below.
Regarding not being able to "see" the vias in the Gerbers, I usually overlay the drill drawing on the Gerbers to make sure the plane connection vias are showing up where I think they should be, and do a spot check. ________________________________ From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org on behalf of Jack Olson Sent: Mon 3/2/2009 7:28 AM To: ManatoshGBaidya (AT) eaton (DOT) com Cc: eric (AT) bethesignal (DOT) com; istvan.novak (AT) att (DOT) net; si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias?? You don't have anything to worry about. The only reason for thermal relief is to reduce the amount of heat needed for soldering/desoldering. Vias aren't considered soldered connections, and many designers flood them One of the only reasons for not flooding them is that the spoked connections are easier to see in plots and gerber data (flooded connections are difficult to "see"). Lamination and Soldering temperatures are much higher than your normal operating temperature (or else you have a bad design!) so any bow and twist will happen at the extremes, not during normal operation. In other words, you'll see it before it ever gets used in the field. If it doesn't warp during assembly, it won't warp later on. Heat will flow through your planes regardless, and nothing about vias contributes to bow and twist. As a matter of fact, getting more heat onto the planes will REDUCE your via barrel stress Jack .. On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:25 PM, <ManatoshGBaidya (AT) eaton (DOT) com> wrote: > Hi Gentleman, > > Good Morning. > I am working on a dense Aerospace Cockpit Control Board and I want to > Flood all of my Vias as Vias Connecting to the Respective planes (Power > & Gnd) is not having good connectivity through the Thermal Spokes. > Flooding vias will help me gaining the required copper area for the > Circuit. > Via size used is .015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. > Will this create any problem in the Component Assembling Process as some > of the heat may pass through the planes and thus PCB may undergo Bow & > Twist or expansion of the PCB. > > Please put your expertise thoughts on it. > > Thank you, > Regards, > Manatosh > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu The information contained in this document is CONFIDENTIAL and property of Kontron. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited without express written consent of Kontron. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the original message and enclosed attachments. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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03-02-2009, 04:54 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias??
Via's will show up in the gerber files just fine If you use the CAM350 tool to view them. I think that depends on the tool.
Richard Jungert > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias?? > Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:45:17 -0800 > From: stefan.milnor (AT) us (DOT) kontron.com > To: pcbjack (AT) gmail (DOT) com; ManatoshGBaidya (AT) eaton (DOT) com > CC: eric (AT) bethesignal (DOT) com; istvan.novak (AT) att (DOT) net; si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org > > I agree with the advice given by Jack below. > > Regarding not being able to "see" the vias in the Gerbers, I usually overlay the drill drawing on the Gerbers to make sure the plane connection vias are showing up where I think they should be, and do a spot check. > > ________________________________ > > From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org on behalf of Jack Olson > Sent: Mon 3/2/2009 7:28 AM > To: ManatoshGBaidya (AT) eaton (DOT) com > Cc: eric (AT) bethesignal (DOT) com; istvan.novak (AT) att (DOT) net; si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Advantages & Disadvantages of Flooding Vias?? > > > > You don't have anything to worry about. > The only reason for thermal relief is to reduce the amount of heat needed > for soldering/desoldering. > > Vias aren't considered soldered connections, and many designers flood them > One of the only reasons for not flooding them is that the spoked connections > are easier to see in > plots and gerber data (flooded connections are difficult to "see"). > > Lamination and Soldering temperatures are much higher than your normal > operating temperature > (or else you have a bad design!) so any bow and twist will happen at the > extremes, not during normal operation. In other words, you'll see it before > it ever gets used in the field. > If it doesn't warp during assembly, it won't warp later on. > > Heat will flow through your planes regardless, and nothing about vias > contributes to bow and twist. > As a matter of fact, getting more heat onto the planes will REDUCE your via > barrel stress > Jack > > > . > On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:25 PM, <ManatoshGBaidya (AT) eaton (DOT) com> wrote: > > > Hi Gentleman, > > > > Good Morning. > > I am working on a dense Aerospace Cockpit Control Board and I want to > > Flood all of my Vias as Vias Connecting to the Respective planes (Power > > & Gnd) is not having good connectivity through the Thermal Spokes. > > Flooding vias will help me gaining the required copper area for the > > Circuit. > > Via size used is .015 Inch Drill\.025 Inch Pad. > > Will this create any problem in the Component Assembling Process as some > > of the heat may pass through the planes and thus PCB may undergo Bow & > > Twist or expansion of the PCB. > > > > Please put your expertise thoughts on it. > > > > Thank you, > > Regards, > > Manatosh > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from si-list: > > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > > > For help: > > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > > > > List technical documents are available at: > > http://www.si-list.net > > > > List archives are viewable at: > > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > or at our remote archives: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > > > The information contained in this document is CONFIDENTIAL and property of Kontron. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited without express written consent of Kontron. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and destroy all copies of the original message and enclosed attachments. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > __________________________________________________ _______________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®.. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/L...009#colortheme ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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05-11-2009, 04:15 PM
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[SI-LIST] PCB modelling wizard ?
Hi,
I wonder how everyone here creates the model when you try to do a 3D EM simulation of PCB related features, do you: 1. manually create 3D model using the modeler that comes with the tool; 2. Use the interface tool provided by EM tool vendor to link to PCB or mechanical CAD tool; I always used option 1 for the following reasons: 1. only include features I need so make the model clean and small; 2. be able to parameterize and do what if analysis; 3. such 3D simulation is usually done in prelayout stage to explore design space so no board file is available. However, I get increasingly tired of doing this as it's a very time consuming process. It's no fun to create multi layer PCB and all small features such as pads, vias, traces, etc., manually, and each design has something different which makes model reuse very difficult. Was hoping for some kind of wizard tool to let me e.g. create multi-layer PCB stackup, define via (pads, antipad etc.) using text based dimensions and have the modeler create a PCB model automatically, and I can add unique features/structures on top of that. That should save a lot of time. Unfortunately not many vendors have that option or interested in implementing them (currently using CST Microwave Studio). I'm aware that Simberor has some of the capability described above but then we can't afford getting every new tool in the market. Regards Perry ======================================= Perry Qu IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com ======================================= ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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05-11-2009, 05:23 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ?
Perry, scripts are your friend here.
Best Regards, Steve. QU Perry wrote: > Hi, > > I wonder how everyone here creates the model when you try to do a 3D EM > simulation of PCB related features, do you: > > 1. manually create 3D model using the modeler that comes with the tool; > 2. Use the interface tool provided by EM tool vendor to link to PCB or > mechanical CAD tool; > > I always used option 1 for the following reasons: > 1. only include features I need so make the model clean and small; > 2. be able to parameterize and do what if analysis; > 3. such 3D simulation is usually done in prelayout stage to explore > design space so no board file is available. > > However, I get increasingly tired of doing this as it's a very time > consuming process. It's no fun to create multi layer PCB and all small > features such as pads, vias, traces, etc., manually, and each design > has something different which makes model reuse very difficult. > > Was hoping for some kind of wizard tool to let me e.g. create > multi-layer PCB stackup, define via (pads, antipad etc.) using text > based dimensions and have the modeler create a PCB model automatically, > and I can add unique features/structures on top of that. That should > save a lot of time. Unfortunately not many vendors have that option or > interested in implementing them (currently using CST Microwave Studio). > I'm aware that Simberor has some of the capability described above but > then we can't afford getting every new tool in the market. > > Regards > > Perry > > ======================================= > > Perry Qu > > IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. > > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada > > DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 > > Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com > > ======================================= > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (866) 675-4630 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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05-11-2009, 05:58 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ?
Perry,
I agree that scripts are certainly the way to go if you do LOTS of 3D modeling on a continual basis. For others who 3D modeling only at certain points in a design cycle, it may be faster to use the interface tool. Even for the pre-layout stage (and perhaps because I have some experience with Allegro), I find it easier to setup a board and draw the desired geometry in Allegro and then transfer it to the 3D tool than to setup a board and draw the geometries in the 3D tool. For the post-layout correlation cases, it's easy to delete unwanted geometries in Allegro and transfer the remainder. Transfer to Momentum is very easy; transfer via Alinks to HFSS or Q3d has a couple of bugs you need to watch out for but can be made to work. In any case, you can convert specific parts of the design to parameterized parts after the transfer. For your specific needs, you should consider the script development as an investment and see which way wins for overall productivity. Aubrey Sparkman Aubrey.K.Sparkman (AT) ieee (DOT) org -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:23 AM To: QU Perry Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, scripts are your friend here. Best Regards, Steve. QU Perry wrote: > Hi, > > I wonder how everyone here creates the model when you try to do a 3D > EM simulation of PCB related features, do you: > > 1. manually create 3D model using the modeler that comes with the > tool; 2. Use the interface tool provided by EM tool vendor to link to > PCB or mechanical CAD tool; > > I always used option 1 for the following reasons: > 1. only include features I need so make the model clean and small; 2. > be able to parameterize and do what if analysis; 3. such 3D simulation > is usually done in prelayout stage to explore design space so no board > file is available. > > However, I get increasingly tired of doing this as it's a very time > consuming process. It's no fun to create multi layer PCB and all small > features such as pads, vias, traces, etc., manually, and each design > has something different which makes model reuse very difficult. > > Was hoping for some kind of wizard tool to let me e.g. create > multi-layer PCB stackup, define via (pads, antipad etc.) using text > based dimensions and have the modeler create a PCB model > automatically, and I can add unique features/structures on top of > that. That should save a lot of time. Unfortunately not many vendors > have that option or interested in implementing them (currently using CST Microwave Studio). > I'm aware that Simberor has some of the capability described above but > then we can't afford getting every new tool in the market. > > Regards > > Perry > > ======================================= > > Perry Qu > > IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. > > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada > > DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 > > Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com > > ======================================= > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (866) 675-4630 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------- Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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05-11-2009, 06:08 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ?
Thanks, Aubrey, Steve.
I guess we need to invest considerable amount of time and effort to get the scripts done, and I was thinking since such feature are widely useful for many EM tool users, why can't they do this as this is their strength ? In the meanwhile, I will look into the allegro link you mentioned. It's not as straightforward but should save me some time. Regards Perry ======================================= Perry Qu IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com ======================================= -----Original Message----- From: Aubrey Sparkman [mailto:asparkman (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:58 PM To: 'steve weir'; QU Perry Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, I agree that scripts are certainly the way to go if you do LOTS of 3D modeling on a continual basis. For others who 3D modeling only at certain points in a design cycle, it may be faster to use the interface tool. Even for the pre-layout stage (and perhaps because I have some experience with Allegro), I find it easier to setup a board and draw the desired geometry in Allegro and then transfer it to the 3D tool than to setup a board and draw the geometries in the 3D tool. For the post-layout correlation cases, it's easy to delete unwanted geometries in Allegro and transfer the remainder. Transfer to Momentum is very easy; transfer via Alinks to HFSS or Q3d has a couple of bugs you need to watch out for but can be made to work. In any case, you can convert specific parts of the design to parameterized parts after the transfer. For your specific needs, you should consider the script development as an investment and see which way wins for overall productivity. Aubrey Sparkman Aubrey.K.Sparkman (AT) ieee (DOT) org -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:23 AM To: QU Perry Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, scripts are your friend here. Best Regards, Steve. QU Perry wrote: > Hi, > > I wonder how everyone here creates the model when you try to do a 3D > EM simulation of PCB related features, do you: > > 1. manually create 3D model using the modeler that comes with the > tool; 2. Use the interface tool provided by EM tool vendor to link to > PCB or mechanical CAD tool; > > I always used option 1 for the following reasons: > 1. only include features I need so make the model clean and small; 2. > be able to parameterize and do what if analysis; 3. such 3D simulation > is usually done in prelayout stage to explore design space so no board > file is available. > > However, I get increasingly tired of doing this as it's a very time > consuming process. It's no fun to create multi layer PCB and all small > features such as pads, vias, traces, etc., manually, and each design > has something different which makes model reuse very difficult. > > Was hoping for some kind of wizard tool to let me e.g. create > multi-layer PCB stackup, define via (pads, antipad etc.) using text > based dimensions and have the modeler create a PCB model > automatically, and I can add unique features/structures on top of > that. That should save a lot of time. Unfortunately not many vendors > have that option or interested in implementing them (currently using CST Microwave Studio). > I'm aware that Simberor has some of the capability described above but > then we can't afford getting every new tool in the market. > > Regards > > Perry > > ======================================= > > Perry Qu > > IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. > > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada > > DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 > > Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com > > ======================================= > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (866) 675-4630 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- -------------------------- Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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05-11-2009, 08:52 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ?
Perry,
Ansoft HFSS has a free "via wizard" which does exactly what you need. You might want to get in touch with them if you do not already have it. Best regards, Vittal Balasubramanian Sr. Signal Integrity Engineer FCI USA, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of QU Perry Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:09 PM To: Aubrey Sparkman; steve weir Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Thanks, Aubrey, Steve. I guess we need to invest considerable amount of time and effort to get the scripts done, and I was thinking since such feature are widely useful for many EM tool users, why can't they do this as this is their strength ? In the meanwhile, I will look into the allegro link you mentioned. It's not as straightforward but should save me some time. Regards Perry ======================================= Perry Qu IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com ======================================= -----Original Message----- From: Aubrey Sparkman [mailto:asparkman (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:58 PM To: 'steve weir'; QU Perry Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, I agree that scripts are certainly the way to go if you do LOTS of 3D modeling on a continual basis. For others who 3D modeling only at certain points in a design cycle, it may be faster to use the interface tool. Even for the pre-layout stage (and perhaps because I have some experience with Allegro), I find it easier to setup a board and draw the desired geometry in Allegro and then transfer it to the 3D tool than to setup a board and draw the geometries in the 3D tool. For the post-layout correlation cases, it's easy to delete unwanted geometries in Allegro and transfer the remainder. Transfer to Momentum is very easy; transfer via Alinks to HFSS or Q3d has a couple of bugs you need to watch out for but can be made to work. In any case, you can convert specific parts of the design to parameterized parts after the transfer. For your specific needs, you should consider the script development as an investment and see which way wins for overall productivity. Aubrey Sparkman Aubrey.K.Sparkman (AT) ieee (DOT) org -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:23 AM To: QU Perry Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, scripts are your friend here. Best Regards, Steve. QU Perry wrote: > Hi, > > I wonder how everyone here creates the model when you try to do a 3D > EM simulation of PCB related features, do you: > > 1. manually create 3D model using the modeler that comes with the > tool; 2. Use the interface tool provided by EM tool vendor to link to > PCB or mechanical CAD tool; > > I always used option 1 for the following reasons: > 1. only include features I need so make the model clean and small; 2. > be able to parameterize and do what if analysis; 3. such 3D simulation > is usually done in prelayout stage to explore design space so no board > file is available. > > However, I get increasingly tired of doing this as it's a very time > consuming process. It's no fun to create multi layer PCB and all small > features such as pads, vias, traces, etc., manually, and each design > has something different which makes model reuse very difficult. > > Was hoping for some kind of wizard tool to let me e.g. create > multi-layer PCB stackup, define via (pads, antipad etc.) using text > based dimensions and have the modeler create a PCB model > automatically, and I can add unique features/structures on top of > that. That should save a lot of time. Unfortunately not many vendors > have that option or interested in implementing them (currently using CST Microwave Studio). > I'm aware that Simberor has some of the capability described above but > then we can't afford getting every new tool in the market. > > Regards > > Perry > > ======================================= > > Perry Qu > > IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. > > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada > > DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 > > Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com > > ======================================= > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (866) 675-4630 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- -------------------------- Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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05-11-2009, 10:15 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ?
Hello all, as Vittal mentioned, a colleague and I wrote an HFSS Via
Wizard a few years back that's available free on the web. You can download this from http://3DViaDesign.com. It has a simple GUI where the user can enter stackup, padstack and via locations. The project is then generated in HFSS ready solve. I parameterized most of the geometry so the user can easily optimize the vias. There is no need to be a 3D modeling expert. This code is old but still works pretty well. I've recently updated and enhanced the wizard and will be releasing a new version in the next few weeks. If anyone has any questions or comments please email me offline. Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of Vittal.Balasubramanian (AT) fci (DOT) com Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:53 PM To: Perry.Qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com; asparkman (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com; weirsi (AT) ipblox (DOT) com Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, Ansoft HFSS has a free "via wizard" which does exactly what you need. You might want to get in touch with them if you do not already have it. Best regards, Vittal Balasubramanian Sr. Signal Integrity Engineer FCI USA, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of QU Perry Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:09 PM To: Aubrey Sparkman; steve weir Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Thanks, Aubrey, Steve. I guess we need to invest considerable amount of time and effort to get the scripts done, and I was thinking since such feature are widely useful for many EM tool users, why can't they do this as this is their strength ? In the meanwhile, I will look into the allegro link you mentioned. It's not as straightforward but should save me some time. Regards Perry ======================================= Perry Qu IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com ======================================= -----Original Message----- From: Aubrey Sparkman [mailto:asparkman (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:58 PM To: 'steve weir'; QU Perry Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, I agree that scripts are certainly the way to go if you do LOTS of 3D modeling on a continual basis. For others who 3D modeling only at certain points in a design cycle, it may be faster to use the interface tool. Even for the pre-layout stage (and perhaps because I have some experience with Allegro), I find it easier to setup a board and draw the desired geometry in Allegro and then transfer it to the 3D tool than to setup a board and draw the geometries in the 3D tool. For the post-layout correlation cases, it's easy to delete unwanted geometries in Allegro and transfer the remainder. Transfer to Momentum is very easy; transfer via Alinks to HFSS or Q3d has a couple of bugs you need to watch out for but can be made to work. In any case, you can convert specific parts of the design to parameterized parts after the transfer. For your specific needs, you should consider the script development as an investment and see which way wins for overall productivity. Aubrey Sparkman Aubrey.K.Sparkman (AT) ieee (DOT) org -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:23 AM To: QU Perry Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, scripts are your friend here. Best Regards, Steve. QU Perry wrote: > Hi, > > I wonder how everyone here creates the model when you try to do a 3D > EM simulation of PCB related features, do you: > > 1. manually create 3D model using the modeler that comes with the > tool; 2. Use the interface tool provided by EM tool vendor to link to > PCB or mechanical CAD tool; > > I always used option 1 for the following reasons: > 1. only include features I need so make the model clean and small; 2. > be able to parameterize and do what if analysis; 3. such 3D simulation > is usually done in prelayout stage to explore design space so no board > file is available. > > However, I get increasingly tired of doing this as it's a very time > consuming process. It's no fun to create multi layer PCB and all small > features such as pads, vias, traces, etc., manually, and each design > has something different which makes model reuse very difficult. > > Was hoping for some kind of wizard tool to let me e.g. create > multi-layer PCB stackup, define via (pads, antipad etc.) using text > based dimensions and have the modeler create a PCB model > automatically, and I can add unique features/structures on top of > that. That should save a lot of time. Unfortunately not many vendors > have that option or interested in implementing them (currently using CST Microwave Studio). > I'm aware that Simberor has some of the capability described above but > then we can't afford getting every new tool in the market. > > Regards > > Perry > > ======================================= > > Perry Qu > > IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. > > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada > > DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 > > Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com > > ======================================= > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (866) 675-4630 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- -------------------------- Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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05-11-2009, 11:47 PM
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[SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ?
Hi, Vittal, Chris:
This is great stuff. Thanks very much ! Now I need to figure out if I can put it in use for CST. I suppose it should work as I can generate a HFSS model and then import it into CST. Just I will lose parameterization. Anyone has tried this ? This might be a better solution as nothing beats free tool.  Cheers Perry ======================================= Perry Qu IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com ======================================= -----Original Message----- From: Chris Herrick [mailto:cherrick (AT) ansoft (DOT) com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:16 PM To: Vittal.Balasubramanian (AT) fci (DOT) com; QU Perry; asparkman (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com; weirsi (AT) ipblox (DOT) com Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Hello all, as Vittal mentioned, a colleague and I wrote an HFSS Via Wizard a few years back that's available free on the web. You can download this from http://3DViaDesign.com. It has a simple GUI where the user can enter stackup, padstack and via locations. The project is then generated in HFSS ready solve. I parameterized most of the geometry so the user can easily optimize the vias. There is no need to be a 3D modeling expert. This code is old but still works pretty well. I've recently updated and enhanced the wizard and will be releasing a new version in the next few weeks. If anyone has any questions or comments please email me offline. Thanks, Chris -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of Vittal.Balasubramanian (AT) fci (DOT) com Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:53 PM To: Perry.Qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com; asparkman (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com; weirsi (AT) ipblox (DOT) com Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, Ansoft HFSS has a free "via wizard" which does exactly what you need. You might want to get in touch with them if you do not already have it. Best regards, Vittal Balasubramanian Sr. Signal Integrity Engineer FCI USA, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of QU Perry Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:09 PM To: Aubrey Sparkman; steve weir Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Thanks, Aubrey, Steve. I guess we need to invest considerable amount of time and effort to get the scripts done, and I was thinking since such feature are widely useful for many EM tool users, why can't they do this as this is their strength ? In the meanwhile, I will look into the allegro link you mentioned. It's not as straightforward but should save me some time. Regards Perry ======================================= Perry Qu IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com ======================================= -----Original Message----- From: Aubrey Sparkman [mailto:asparkman (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com] Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:58 PM To: 'steve weir'; QU Perry Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, I agree that scripts are certainly the way to go if you do LOTS of 3D modeling on a continual basis. For others who 3D modeling only at certain points in a design cycle, it may be faster to use the interface tool. Even for the pre-layout stage (and perhaps because I have some experience with Allegro), I find it easier to setup a board and draw the desired geometry in Allegro and then transfer it to the 3D tool than to setup a board and draw the geometries in the 3D tool. For the post-layout correlation cases, it's easy to delete unwanted geometries in Allegro and transfer the remainder. Transfer to Momentum is very easy; transfer via Alinks to HFSS or Q3d has a couple of bugs you need to watch out for but can be made to work. In any case, you can convert specific parts of the design to parameterized parts after the transfer. For your specific needs, you should consider the script development as an investment and see which way wins for overall productivity. Aubrey Sparkman Aubrey.K.Sparkman (AT) ieee (DOT) org -----Original Message----- From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] On Behalf Of steve weir Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:23 AM To: QU Perry Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? Perry, scripts are your friend here. Best Regards, Steve. QU Perry wrote: > Hi, > > I wonder how everyone here creates the model when you try to do a 3D > EM simulation of PCB related features, do you: > > 1. manually create 3D model using the modeler that comes with the > tool; 2. Use the interface tool provided by EM tool vendor to link to > PCB or mechanical CAD tool; > > I always used option 1 for the following reasons: > 1. only include features I need so make the model clean and small; 2. > be able to parameterize and do what if analysis; 3. such 3D simulation > is usually done in prelayout stage to explore design space so no board > file is available. > > However, I get increasingly tired of doing this as it's a very time > consuming process. It's no fun to create multi layer PCB and all small > features such as pads, vias, traces, etc., manually, and each design > has something different which makes model reuse very difficult. > > Was hoping for some kind of wizard tool to let me e.g. create > multi-layer PCB stackup, define via (pads, antipad etc.) using text > based dimensions and have the modeler create a PCB model > automatically, and I can add unique features/structures on top of > that. That should save a lot of time. Unfortunately not many vendors > have that option or interested in implementing them (currently using CST Microwave Studio). > I'm aware that Simberor has some of the capability described above but > then we can't afford getting every new tool in the market. > > Regards > > Perry > > ======================================= > > Perry Qu > > IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. > > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada > > DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 > > Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com > > ======================================= > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > -- Steve Weir Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC 121 North River Drive Narragansett, RI 02882 California office (866) 675-4630 Business (707) 780-1951 Fax Main office (401) 284-1827 Business (401) 284-1840 Fax Oregon office (503) 430-1065 Business (503) 430-1285 Fax http://www.teraspeed.com This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- -------------------------- Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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05-12-2009, 07:35 AM
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[SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ?
Hi All,
Which EDA tool is more accurate for LTCC simulation .I want to know how AWR is useful for the LTCC simulation . With Regards Viswanathan.B QU Perry wrote: > Hi, Vittal, Chris: > > This is great stuff. Thanks very much ! Now I need to figure out if I > can put it in use for CST. I suppose it should work as I can generate a > HFSS model and then import it into CST. Just I will lose > parameterization. Anyone has tried this ? > > This might be a better solution as nothing beats free tool. > > Cheers > > Perry > > > > ======================================= > Perry Qu > IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada > DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 > Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com > ======================================= > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Herrick [mailto:cherrick (AT) ansoft (DOT) com] > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:16 PM > To: Vittal.Balasubramanian (AT) fci (DOT) com; QU Perry; asparkman (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com; > weirsi (AT) ipblox (DOT) com > Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? > > Hello all, as Vittal mentioned, a colleague and I wrote an HFSS Via > Wizard a few years back that's available free on the web. You can > download this from http://3DViaDesign.com. It has a simple GUI where the > user can enter stackup, padstack and via locations. The project is then > generated in HFSS ready solve. I parameterized most of the geometry so > the user can easily optimize the vias. There is no need to be a 3D > modeling expert. > > This code is old but still works pretty well. I've recently updated and > enhanced the wizard and will be releasing a new version in the next few > weeks. If anyone has any questions or comments please email me offline. > > Thanks, > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] > On Behalf Of Vittal.Balasubramanian (AT) fci (DOT) com > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:53 PM > To: Perry.Qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com; asparkman (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com; > weirsi (AT) ipblox (DOT) com > Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? > > Perry, > > Ansoft HFSS has a free "via wizard" which does exactly what you need. > You might want to get in touch with them if you do not already have it. > > Best regards, > Vittal Balasubramanian > Sr. Signal Integrity Engineer > FCI USA, Inc. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] > On Behalf Of QU Perry > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 1:09 PM > To: Aubrey Sparkman; steve weir > Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? > > Thanks, Aubrey, Steve. > > I guess we need to invest considerable amount of time and effort to get > the scripts done, and I was thinking since such feature are widely > useful for many EM tool users, why can't they do this as this is their > strength ? > > In the meanwhile, I will look into the allegro link you mentioned. It's > not as straightforward but should save me some time. > > Regards > > Perry > > ======================================= > Perry Qu > IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. > 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada > DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 > Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com > ======================================= > > -----Original Message----- > From: Aubrey Sparkman [mailto:asparkman (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com] > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 12:58 PM > To: 'steve weir'; QU Perry > Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? > > Perry, > > I agree that scripts are certainly the way to go if you do LOTS of 3D > modeling on a continual basis. For others who 3D modeling only at > certain > points in a design cycle, it may be faster to use the interface tool. > Even > for the pre-layout stage (and perhaps because I have some experience > with > Allegro), I find it easier to setup a board and draw the desired > geometry in > Allegro and then transfer it to the 3D tool than to setup a board and > draw > the geometries in the 3D tool. For the post-layout correlation cases, > it's > easy to delete unwanted geometries in Allegro and transfer the > remainder. > Transfer to Momentum is very easy; transfer via Alinks to HFSS or Q3d > has a > couple of bugs you need to watch out for but can be made to work. In > any > case, you can convert specific parts of the design to parameterized > parts > after the transfer. > > For your specific needs, you should consider the script development as > an > investment and see which way wins for overall productivity. > > > Aubrey Sparkman > Aubrey.K.Sparkman (AT) ieee (DOT) org > > -----Original Message----- > From: si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org [mailto:si-list-bounce (AT) freelists (DOT) org] > On > Behalf Of steve weir > Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 11:23 AM > To: QU Perry > Cc: si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: PCB modelling wizard ? > > Perry, scripts are your friend here. > > Best Regards, > > > Steve. > QU Perry wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I wonder how everyone here creates the model when you try to do a 3D >> EM simulation of PCB related features, do you: >> >> 1. manually create 3D model using the modeler that comes with the >> tool; 2. Use the interface tool provided by EM tool vendor to link to >> PCB or mechanical CAD tool; >> >> I always used option 1 for the following reasons: >> 1. only include features I need so make the model clean and small; 2. >> be able to parameterize and do what if analysis; 3. such 3D simulation >> > > >> is usually done in prelayout stage to explore design space so no board >> > > >> file is available. >> >> However, I get increasingly tired of doing this as it's a very time >> consuming process. It's no fun to create multi layer PCB and all small >> features such as pads, vias, traces, etc., manually, and each design >> has something different which makes model reuse very difficult. >> >> Was hoping for some kind of wizard tool to let me e.g. create >> multi-layer PCB stackup, define via (pads, antipad etc.) using text >> based dimensions and have the modeler create a PCB model >> automatically, and I can add unique features/structures on top of >> that. That should save a lot of time. Unfortunately not many vendors >> have that option or interested in implementing them (currently using >> > CST > Microwave Studio). > >> I'm aware that Simberor has some of the capability described above but >> > > >> then we can't afford getting every new tool in the market. >> >> Regards >> >> Perry >> >> ======================================= >> >> Perry Qu >> >> IPD Design & Qualification, Alcatel-Lucent Canada Inc. >> >> 600 March Road, Ottawa ON, K2K 2E6, Canada >> >> DID: 613-7846720 Fax: 613-5993642 >> >> Email: perry.qu (AT) alcatel-lucent (DOT) com >> >> ======================================= >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> >> List technical documents are available at: >> http://www.si-list.net >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Steve Weir > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > 121 North River Drive > Narragansett, RI 02882 > > California office > (866) 675-4630 Business > (707) 780-1951 Fax > > Main office > (401) 284-1827 Business > (401) 284-1840 Fax > > Oregon office > (503) 430-1065 Business > (503) 430-1285 Fax > > http://www.teraspeed.com > This e-mail contains proprietary and confidential intellectual property > of > Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ---- > -------------------------- > Teraspeed(R) is the registered service mark of Teraspeed Consulting > Group > LLC > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List technical documents are available at: > http://www.si-list.net > > List archives are viewable at: > http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > or at our remote archives: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > > > -- DISCLAIMER: This message and any attachments are solely for the intended recipient and may contain confidential or privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, use, or distribution of the information included in this message and any attachments is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us by reply e-mail and immediately and permanently delete this message and any attachments. Thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field List technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.net List archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
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