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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2006, 05:05 PM
Anonymous
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Default xilinx pricing discrepancy

Can anyone explain why the quotes that we are getting from Xilinx are 4x
their own marketing materials? For example this article

http://www.ednasia.com/article.asp?articleid=1913

says that quantity 50k of an fx12 would be $29.99. We are being quoted about
$112 for 100k units. Most of the other device prices we are getting are also
about 4x what I suspect they must be considering the applications they are
going into.

Are we talking to the wrong people? Is there a direct xilinx contact to
negotiate large volume deals.

Thanks,
Clark


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2006, 05:28 PM
Antti
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Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

FX12 in 100k is defenetly not 112USD
the 29.99 for FX12 sure sounds like really nice price..

try direct contacts for 100k volumes you must get better pricing for
sure
unless you are asking for largest package fastest speed industrial
temperature..

the advertized pricing is always the lowest price for given part
smallest pack, slowest speed, commercial temp, etc

Antti

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2006, 05:33 PM
John Adair
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Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

Headline pricing often has a date sometime in the future against it. There
are also price variations against package. The headline price will also
usually be done on the cheapest package and speed grade. I'm guessing that
you are using the FF668 package by the prices you have.

What you need to do is to talk to your FAE who may be either at distributor
level or if you are a big account it will likely be Xilinx or the country
rep. Depends where you are and who you are. Alternativly some Xilinx
partners like ourselves, or even large assembler operations, can be used as
negotiators of price as we know reasonably well how to drive the system and
what can be attained in a project with a tight budget.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Low Cost Spartan-3 Development
Board.
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk


"Anonymous" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] .
> Can anyone explain why the quotes that we are getting from Xilinx are 4x
> their own marketing materials? For example this article
>
> http://www.ednasia.com/article.asp?articleid=1913
>
> says that quantity 50k of an fx12 would be $29.99. We are being quoted
> about
> $112 for 100k units. Most of the other device prices we are getting are
> also
> about 4x what I suspect they must be considering the applications they are
> going into.
>
> Are we talking to the wrong people? Is there a direct xilinx contact to
> negotiate large volume deals.
>
> Thanks,
> Clark
>
>



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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2006, 07:21 PM
Anonymous
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

Is it possible to get Xilinx to just tell me what the cheapest V4FX device
is possible for 100k units? The device also has to be easy path compatible
as the eventual product is going to be very price sensitive.

Thanks,
Clark

"John Adair" <[email protected] uk> wrote in
message news:[email protected]
> Headline pricing often has a date sometime in the future against it. There
> are also price variations against package. The headline price will also
> usually be done on the cheapest package and speed grade. I'm guessing that
> you are using the FF668 package by the prices you have.
>
> What you need to do is to talk to your FAE who may be either at

distributor
> level or if you are a big account it will likely be Xilinx or the country
> rep. Depends where you are and who you are. Alternativly some Xilinx
> partners like ourselves, or even large assembler operations, can be used

as
> negotiators of price as we know reasonably well how to drive the system

and
> what can be attained in a project with a tight budget.
>
> John Adair
> Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Low Cost Spartan-3 Development
> Board.
> http://www.enterpoint.co.uk
>
>
> "Anonymous" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] .
> > Can anyone explain why the quotes that we are getting from Xilinx are 4x
> > their own marketing materials? For example this article
> >
> > http://www.ednasia.com/article.asp?articleid=1913
> >
> > says that quantity 50k of an fx12 would be $29.99. We are being quoted
> > about
> > $112 for 100k units. Most of the other device prices we are getting are
> > also
> > about 4x what I suspect they must be considering the applications they

are
> > going into.
> >
> > Are we talking to the wrong people? Is there a direct xilinx contact to
> > negotiate large volume deals.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Clark
> >
> >

>
>



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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2006, 08:03 PM
John Adair
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

You really need to get a FAE involved and to check both the Easypath
availability and the charges and NRE for using those parts too. The 100K
volume market is for Xilinx, and all the other vendors for that matter, a
market that they are seriously interested in. My educated guess is that the
SF363 will be the package that is cheapest but there will be other
considerations such as board layout that you should consider on this package
at the same time. I also don't know Easypath status for that package so that
needs to be checked.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Broaddown2. The Ultimate Spartan3 Development
Board.
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk


"Anonymous" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Is it possible to get Xilinx to just tell me what the cheapest V4FX device
> is possible for 100k units? The device also has to be easy path compatible
> as the eventual product is going to be very price sensitive.
>
> Thanks,
> Clark
>
> "John Adair" <[email protected] uk> wrote
> in
> message news:[email protected]
>> Headline pricing often has a date sometime in the future against it.
>> There
>> are also price variations against package. The headline price will also
>> usually be done on the cheapest package and speed grade. I'm guessing
>> that
>> you are using the FF668 package by the prices you have.
>>
>> What you need to do is to talk to your FAE who may be either at

> distributor
>> level or if you are a big account it will likely be Xilinx or the country
>> rep. Depends where you are and who you are. Alternativly some Xilinx
>> partners like ourselves, or even large assembler operations, can be used

> as
>> negotiators of price as we know reasonably well how to drive the system

> and
>> what can be attained in a project with a tight budget.
>>
>> John Adair
>> Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Low Cost Spartan-3
>> Development
>> Board.
>> http://www.enterpoint.co.uk
>>
>>
>> "Anonymous" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected] .
>> > Can anyone explain why the quotes that we are getting from Xilinx are
>> > 4x
>> > their own marketing materials? For example this article
>> >
>> > http://www.ednasia.com/article.asp?articleid=1913
>> >
>> > says that quantity 50k of an fx12 would be $29.99. We are being quoted
>> > about
>> > $112 for 100k units. Most of the other device prices we are getting are
>> > also
>> > about 4x what I suspect they must be considering the applications they

> are
>> > going into.
>> >
>> > Are we talking to the wrong people? Is there a direct xilinx contact to
>> > negotiate large volume deals.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Clark
>> >
>> >

>>
>>

>
>



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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2006, 08:33 PM
Ed McGettigan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

John Adair wrote:
> You really need to get a FAE involved and to check both the Easypath
> availability and the charges and NRE for using those parts too. The 100K
> volume market is for Xilinx, and all the other vendors for that matter, a
> market that they are seriously interested in. My educated guess is that the
> SF363 will be the package that is cheapest but there will be other
> considerations such as board layout that you should consider on this package
> at the same time. I also don't know Easypath status for that package so that
> needs to be checked.
>
> John Adair
> Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Broaddown2. The Ultimate Spartan3 Development
> Board.
> http://www.enterpoint.co.uk
>
>
> "Anonymous" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Is it possible to get Xilinx to just tell me what the cheapest V4FX device
>> is possible for 100k units? The device also has to be easy path compatible
>> as the eventual product is going to be very price sensitive.
>>


I agree with John, you need to talk with a Xilinx FAE/Sales Manager
and they will be able to address your pricing concerns. BTW, the
lowest cost V4FX will be the FX12 that you have selected with some
modifiers due to package (small) and speed grade (medium).

If you are having problems getting through to someone from Xilinx,
drop me an email and I'll get it taking care of.

Ed McGettigan
--
Xilinx Inc.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2006, 09:13 PM
Bob Perlman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

Clark -

On Mon, 22 May 2006 16:05:52 GMT, "Anonymous" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Can anyone explain why the quotes that we are getting from Xilinx are 4x
>their own marketing materials? For example this article
>
>http://www.ednasia.com/article.asp?articleid=1913
>
>says that quantity 50k of an fx12 would be $29.99. We are being quoted about
>$112 for 100k units. Most of the other device prices we are getting are also
>about 4x what I suspect they must be considering the applications they are
>going into.
>
>Are we talking to the wrong people? Is there a direct xilinx contact to
>negotiate large volume deals.
>
>Thanks,
>Clark
>


This question arises from time to time; here's my take:

http://www.sonic.net/~bobperl/blogge...s-release.html

Bob Perlman
Cambrian Design Works
http://www.cambriandesign.com
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2006, 12:01 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy


Bob Perlman wrote:
> This question arises from time to time; here's my take:
>
> http://www.sonic.net/~bobperl/blogge...s-release.html
>
> Bob Perlman
> Cambrian Design Works
> http://www.cambriandesign.com


On the otherhand there are strong truth in advertising laws in many
states, including Calif. So if they quote the price and product, one
can issue a PO based on those terms and start designing, targeting that
delivery date. So it might not be a dream price after all.

The DA where I used to live in Calif yanked advertising privs from a
company for a year that was doing bait and switch that way after a few
complaints. A lot harder to stay in business with only walk in traffic
and poor word of mouth reputaion.

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2006, 12:45 AM
Tim
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy


Ed McGettigan wrote
> lowest cost V4FX will be the FX12 that you have selected with some
> modifiers due to package (small) and speed grade (medium).


In the far off days of the XC3000, Peter wrote that the uplift was around
10% per speed grade and 10% per package size (if memory serves.) You could
start negotiating from these figures, though who knows whether they still
apply - we aren't in the 68-pin/84-pin world any more ;-)


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2006, 08:24 AM
Kolja Sulimma
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

John Adair schrieb:
> Headline pricing often has a date sometime in the future against it.


But they keep publishing the press release on the website, that's enough
for legal action:
http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/silico...60_spirent.htm

Apparently:
1. An FX20 did cost 50$ in 25k quantities in december 2005
2. Xilinx has been shipping 10gbps MGTs as early as June 2005.

Now, my FAE tells me that there never have been any Virtex-4 with 10gpbs
MGTs. So Xilinx should really modify that web page.


Kolja Sulimma
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2006, 11:40 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

>On the otherhand there are strong truth in advertising laws...
>...you can issue a PO based on those terms and start designing...


You have a touching notion of how widely these laws extend (if they
exist at all). The general rule is "caveat emptor" and, in general,
no contract is made until a clear offer has been both made and
accepted.

Instead of playing amateur lawyers, engineers should look to practical
means to keep component costs under control. Suppliers are dismayed
most (and hence most flexible) when they know you have other options.
This is the best reason to keep proprietary aspects of your design to
a minimum.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2006, 01:16 PM
Marc Randolph
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy


Kolja Sulimma wrote:
> John Adair schrieb:
> > Headline pricing often has a date sometime in the future against it.

>
> But they keep publishing the press release on the website, that's enough
> for legal action:
> http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/silico...60_spirent.htm
>
> Apparently:
> 1. An FX20 did cost 50$ in 25k quantities in december 2005
> 2. Xilinx has been shipping 10gbps MGTs as early as June 2005.


Howdy Kolja,

While the page is "on the web", I wouldn't call it an active page - you
are looking at a historical document (clearly dated June 2005) about
the current state (as of June 2005) and a future predicted price (as of
June 2005). I think it would difficult to find any evidence that they
are still making those claims, although I suppose you could argue that
since there is no newer *published* information, by default one would
easily assume that to still be accurate.

Note that I'm not defending these nearly useless press releases, which
are purely a marketing ploy to get an absurdly low price in the minds
of engineers, 99% of whom will never be able to get anywhere close to
that quantity (and therefore, that price).

> Now, my FAE tells me that there never have been any Virtex-4 with 10gpbs
> MGTs.


It depends on what he means by "never" :-) They were never shipped as
generally available product to any customer that wanted them (lots of
us wanted them, and still do!). But I assume that Xilinx had 10 Gbps
prototypes working, and even shipped some of those prototypes to
customers as early as June 2005. None of these statements, however,
mention anything about general availablity or being in full production.
They could have shipped just a few parts to a few alpha customers and
that would have fulfilled the statements made. Unfortunately, these
types of press releases are all too common in the technology world
(actually this one isn't as bad as some, where press releases are put
out for products that aren't even designed yet).

> So Xilinx should really modify that web page.


Again, in this particuar case, it's a press release, which is
historical documentation of a public statement. You can't go back and
change them - the best you could do would be to put a notice at the top
saying that it had been superceeded by something else, or remove it
completely.

Have fun,

Marc

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2006, 01:58 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy


[email protected] wrote:
> >On the otherhand there are strong truth in advertising laws...
> >...you can issue a PO based on those terms and start designing...

>
> You have a touching notion of how widely these laws extend (if they
> exist at all). The general rule is "caveat emptor" and, in general,
> no contract is made until a clear offer has been both made and
> accepted.
>
> Instead of playing amateur lawyers, engineers should look to practical
> means to keep component costs under control. Suppliers are dismayed
> most (and hence most flexible) when they know you have other options.
> This is the best reason to keep proprietary aspects of your design to
> a minimum.


Certainly ... on the other hand, I made the final "bait and switch"
complaint that shut one vendors advertising rights down for a year
after talking with the local DAs business and economic crime unit. So
..... your milage may vary depending on your local officals ... the laws
do exist in some areas which mandate clear "truth in advertising"
requirements. If you have a business, I'd suggest checking up on them
before making press releases and printing advertisements, as somebody
may hold you to the printed word if you refuse a sale.

Other references:

http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/CT/suit.html
http://www.mlmwatch.org/04C/CT/ruling.html

http://sacramento.bizjournals.com/sa...4/daily32.html

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...&ct=clnk&cd=49

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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 05-23-2006, 02:19 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy


[email protected] wrote:
> >On the otherhand there are strong truth in advertising laws...
> >...you can issue a PO based on those terms and start designing...

>
> You have a touching notion of how widely these laws extend (if they
> exist at all). The general rule is "caveat emptor" and, in general,
> no contract is made until a clear offer has been both made and
> accepted.


By the way Mike ... being from the UK you might not understand that
Xilinx is located in California, the state with the strict "Truth in
advertising" law referenced ... just google calfifornia truth in
advertising ... the law does exist, and is well tested. Even corporate
giant Nike lost a few years back when their PR releases were challenged
.... exactly the same issue in this thread. So, if the Xilinx price
claims are not true, in Calif they can run but not hide from the
liability.

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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2006, 12:36 AM
Peter Alfke
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

My suggestion is to confront the seller (distributor) and make him
justify the price, considering package, speed, temperature.
(Something you never mentioned in this newsgroup. Might have saved us
all a lot of hot air).
Also try to convince him that your 100,000 piece requirement is not
just your wishful thinking. (Which he may suspect).
Distributors are independent businesses, they have a lot of freedom to
set their pricing...
Peter Alfke

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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2006, 12:58 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy


Peter Alfke wrote:
> My suggestion is to confront the seller (distributor) and make him
> justify the price, considering package, speed, temperature.
> (Something you never mentioned in this newsgroup. Might have saved us
> all a lot of hot air).
> Also try to convince him that your 100,000 piece requirement is not
> just your wishful thinking. (Which he may suspect).
> Distributors are independent businesses, they have a lot of freedom to
> set their pricing...
> Peter Alfke


And just where is the hot air Peter?

Which "you" are you refering to?

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2006, 03:42 AM
Peter Alfke
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy


[email protected] wrote:
> Peter Alfke wrote:
> > My suggestion is to confront the seller (distributor) and make him
> > justify the price, considering package, speed, temperature.
> > (Something you never mentioned in this newsgroup. Might have saved us
> > all a lot of hot air).
> > Also try to convince him that your 100,000 piece requirement is not
> > just your wishful thinking. (Which he may suspect).
> > Distributors are independent businesses, they have a lot of freedom to
> > set their pricing...
> > Peter Alfke

>
> And just where is the hot air Peter?
>
> Which "you" are you refering to?


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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2006, 03:50 AM
Peter Alfke
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

"Hot air" is what I call all those references to the Law, "truth in
advertizing" etc, before we even know the facts of this quotation...
We still do not know. The distributor might have had a reason to
effectively "no bid" this request for quote.

I am always leary when somebody calls himself Anonymous,
and the people in this newsgroup then respond as if they had to help a
Damsell in Distress...

Peter Alfke

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2006, 04:55 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy


Peter Alfke wrote:
> "Hot air" is what I call all those references to the Law, "truth in
> advertizing" etc, before we even know the facts of this quotation...
> We still do not know. The distributor might have had a reason to
> effectively "no bid" this request for quote.


Two things ... first, I referenced the law, simply to provide Xilinx
some credibility, as I don't think Xilinx would violate the Truth in
Advertising with the legal liabilities in California. The speculatation
that Xilinx would actually lie in the PR releases is far more damaging.
If I'm wrong about Xilinx's credibilty, I'm sure there will be legal
action to correct that problem.

Second, if Xilinx quotes those prices, and none of your distributors
are willing to honor them, and Xilinx refuses to deal directly with
customers, then the figures are truely false advertising, and need to
be corrected ... as Xilinx is then liable under California law for the
misrepresentation.

that is hardly hot air ... and actually in favor of Xilinx.

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-24-2006, 06:03 AM
Peter Alfke
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Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

This newsgroup is not the substitute for a request for quote sent to
the appropriate sales channel.
That sales channel would also have told you that the V4FX12 is too
small to be a candidate for EasyPath.
There are proper ways to get this information, without abusing the
newsgroup, where you started a rambling discussion, without ever
revealing your Anonymous identity, or even the details of your request
or complaint.
Most of us have better things to do than engage in these wide ranging
speculations.
Peter Alfke

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 12:09 AM
Anonymous
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

(a) It wasn't anonymous I said my name was Clark. I assume fpga_toys is his
christian name? Did you need a home address?
(b) I think the article I linked to did specify the device details.

No controversy was intended. I see an ad that says $29.99 for fx12 in
quantity 50K. I get an answer back from my purchasing department that says
about $112 for quantity 100K. I'm merely trying to figure out what the
disconnect is.

-Clark

"Peter Alfke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
> This newsgroup is not the substitute for a request for quote sent to
> the appropriate sales channel.
> That sales channel would also have told you that the V4FX12 is too
> small to be a candidate for EasyPath.
> There are proper ways to get this information, without abusing the
> newsgroup, where you started a rambling discussion, without ever
> revealing your Anonymous identity, or even the details of your request
> or complaint.
> Most of us have better things to do than engage in these wide ranging
> speculations.
> Peter Alfke
>



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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 12:39 AM
Peter Alfke
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

Hi, Clark
The difference between the two prices is very large, as you correctly
stated.
But you never provided details for the device you want, obviously not
the simplest and cheapest.:
What speed grade, what package, what temperature grade?
These factors can each raise the price.
But I still think the $112 quote looks like an attempt not to bid for
your business.
BTW, no EasyPath for a device this small.
In order to achieve a lower price, the device must be bigger, so that
Xilinx has a way to save cost through higher yield and shorter test
time. For small devices, that saving is insignificant (for large die
the saving is substantial).

Peter Alfke

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-25-2006, 01:19 PM
Anonymous
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: xilinx pricing discrepancy

Thanks. I've actually turned it around on them and asked them to tell me
what the cheapest FX device they can give me in 100K quantity. We'll see
what they come back with.

-Clark

"Peter Alfke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
> Hi, Clark
> The difference between the two prices is very large, as you correctly
> stated.
> But you never provided details for the device you want, obviously not
> the simplest and cheapest.:
> What speed grade, what package, what temperature grade?
> These factors can each raise the price.
> But I still think the $112 quote looks like an attempt not to bid for
> your business.
> BTW, no EasyPath for a device this small.
> In order to achieve a lower price, the device must be bigger, so that
> Xilinx has a way to save cost through higher yield and shorter test
> time. For small devices, that saving is insignificant (for large die
> the saving is substantial).
>
> Peter Alfke
>



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