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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2003, 08:36 AM
Dave
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Posts: n/a
Default Webpack Vs. ISE

I am just about to go through a 115 page introduction tutorial on the XCESS
website for using the Xilinx Webpack 4.x edition. However I will be using
the ISE Foundation 4.x edition and want to know if I am wasting my time
reading the entire Webpack tutorial to learn how to use the ISE Foundation
edition. I am assuming its all the same, with Webpack just having less
features. Anyone who is familiar with both editions that can let me know to
go ahead with this or STOP - and find a tutorial at Xilinx instead (I need
to install the software for their tutes I think) would be much appreciated.
Initial stages will be purely schematic entry. VHDL will come later.

Regards
Dave


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2003, 02:53 AM
Clyde R. Shappee
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE

I have used Webpack 4.2 something and I believe the ISE foundation of about the
same edition.

I have found that they are essentially identical, with the following
differences:

Webpack does not have the core generator. You cannot use the block rams and
other on chip resources.

I also am not sure that you can change the synthesis flow from XST to any thing
else. I don't know this for fact, as I have not tried to do this.

HTH

Clyde

Dave wrote:

> I am just about to go through a 115 page introduction tutorial on the XCESS
> website for using the Xilinx Webpack 4.x edition. However I will be using
> the ISE Foundation 4.x edition and want to know if I am wasting my time
> reading the entire Webpack tutorial to learn how to use the ISE Foundation
> edition. I am assuming its all the same, with Webpack just having less
> features. Anyone who is familiar with both editions that can let me know to
> go ahead with this or STOP - and find a tutorial at Xilinx instead (I need
> to install the software for their tutes I think) would be much appreciated.
> Initial stages will be purely schematic entry. VHDL will come later.
>
> Regards
> Dave


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 09-12-2003, 01:56 PM
Nial Stewart
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE


Clyde R. Shappee <[email protected]_world.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]_world.com...
> I have used Webpack 4.2 something and I believe the ISE foundation of

about the
> same edition.
>
> I have found that they are essentially identical, with the following
> differences:
>
> Webpack does not have the core generator. You cannot use the block rams

and
> other on chip resources.


That's not true Clyde, you've just got to know what they're called
and instantiate them directly.

See the Picoblaze and 'VirtexII picoblaze (more instruction memory)
on a SpartanII' projects on the Downloads page of my web site below.

Both done with web-pack and both instantiate blockrams.


Nial Stewart

------------------------------------------------
Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk


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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2003, 04:08 AM
Marc Guardiani
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE

Are you going to be using ISE or Foundation? They are two completely
different software packages. ISE is very similar to the Webpack (another
reply you received describes the differences). Foundation is no longer
supported by Xilinx and is based on third party software. Also
Foundation will not do the newer FPGAs and ISE will not do the older FPGAs.

Dave wrote:
> I am just about to go through a 115 page introduction tutorial on the XCESS
> website for using the Xilinx Webpack 4.x edition. However I will be using
> the ISE Foundation 4.x edition and want to know if I am wasting my time
> reading the entire Webpack tutorial to learn how to use the ISE Foundation
> edition. I am assuming its all the same, with Webpack just having less
> features. Anyone who is familiar with both editions that can let me know to
> go ahead with this or STOP - and find a tutorial at Xilinx instead (I need
> to install the software for their tutes I think) would be much appreciated.
> Initial stages will be purely schematic entry. VHDL will come later.
>
> Regards
> Dave
>
>


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2003, 06:48 AM
Matt
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE

Marc,

Xilinx has four versions of their ISE software. They are:

1) Webpack
2) Ba***
3) Foundation
4) Alliance

1 and 2 are subsets of Foundation which has the XST synthesis tool. The
differentiator is that #3 has the full toolset with support for all Xilinx
devices. Numbers 1 and 2 have XST but only support the low to mid range
devices. Alliance is the third party flow which does not include XST.
It should be noted that XST does not support devices based on the 4000
architecture. i.e. 4000 family, Spartan/Spartan XL. All other families are
supported. If you need support for the 4000 stuff you need to go third
party.

Hope this helps...


Matt

"Marc Guardiani" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Are you going to be using ISE or Foundation? They are two completely
> different software packages. ISE is very similar to the Webpack (another
> reply you received describes the differences). Foundation is no longer
> supported by Xilinx and is based on third party software. Also
> Foundation will not do the newer FPGAs and ISE will not do the older

FPGAs.
>
> Dave wrote:
> > I am just about to go through a 115 page introduction tutorial on the

XCESS
> > website for using the Xilinx Webpack 4.x edition. However I will be

using
> > the ISE Foundation 4.x edition and want to know if I am wasting my time
> > reading the entire Webpack tutorial to learn how to use the ISE

Foundation
> > edition. I am assuming its all the same, with Webpack just having less
> > features. Anyone who is familiar with both editions that can let me know

to
> > go ahead with this or STOP - and find a tutorial at Xilinx instead (I

need
> > to install the software for their tutes I think) would be much

appreciated.
> > Initial stages will be purely schematic entry. VHDL will come later.
> >
> > Regards
> > Dave
> >
> >

>



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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 09-13-2003, 09:15 PM
Marc Guardiani
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE

Matt,

Thanks for the info. I looked at the Xilinx web site and what they are
now calling Foundation is not what they had called Foundation
previously. Previously, ISE started and Foundation ended with version
4.x (which used Aldec technology). What they are now calling Foundation
is something completely different than what I was refering to. I stand
corrected.

Marc


Matt wrote:
> Marc,
>
> Xilinx has four versions of their ISE software. They are:
>
> 1) Webpack
> 2) Ba***
> 3) Foundation
> 4) Alliance
>
> 1 and 2 are subsets of Foundation which has the XST synthesis tool. The
> differentiator is that #3 has the full toolset with support for all Xilinx
> devices. Numbers 1 and 2 have XST but only support the low to mid range
> devices. Alliance is the third party flow which does not include XST.
> It should be noted that XST does not support devices based on the 4000
> architecture. i.e. 4000 family, Spartan/Spartan XL. All other families are
> supported. If you need support for the 4000 stuff you need to go third
> party.
>
> Hope this helps...
>
>
> Matt
>
> "Marc Guardiani" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
>>Are you going to be using ISE or Foundation? They are two completely
>>different software packages. ISE is very similar to the Webpack (another
>>reply you received describes the differences). Foundation is no longer
>>supported by Xilinx and is based on third party software. Also
>>Foundation will not do the newer FPGAs and ISE will not do the older

>
> FPGAs.
>
>>Dave wrote:
>>
>>>I am just about to go through a 115 page introduction tutorial on the

>
> XCESS
>
>>>website for using the Xilinx Webpack 4.x edition. However I will be

>
> using
>
>>>the ISE Foundation 4.x edition and want to know if I am wasting my time
>>>reading the entire Webpack tutorial to learn how to use the ISE

>
> Foundation
>
>>>edition. I am assuming its all the same, with Webpack just having less
>>>features. Anyone who is familiar with both editions that can let me know

>
> to
>
>>>go ahead with this or STOP - and find a tutorial at Xilinx instead (I

>
> need
>
>>>to install the software for their tutes I think) would be much

>
> appreciated.
>
>>>Initial stages will be purely schematic entry. VHDL will come later.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>

>>

>
>


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 09-14-2003, 07:56 PM
Clyde R. Shappee
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE

I just did a little experiment with the webpack software, instantiating a
fifo in the block ram.... and the software black boxes it because it doesn't
know how to hook it up.

The .edn file from the core generator is missing, and as such XST does not
know how to configure the block ram.

This is consistent with information I received from the Xilinx Apps guy.

/\/\/\/

Sorry for my confusion on Webpack vs. Foundation.

Clyde

Nial Stewart wrote:

> Clyde R. Shappee <[email protected]_world.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]_world.com...
> > I have used Webpack 4.2 something and I believe the ISE foundation of

> about the
> > same edition.
> >
> > I have found that they are essentially identical, with the following
> > differences:
> >
> > Webpack does not have the core generator. You cannot use the block rams

> and
> > other on chip resources.

>
> That's not true Clyde, you've just got to know what they're called
> and instantiate them directly.
>
> See the Picoblaze and 'VirtexII picoblaze (more instruction memory)
> on a SpartanII' projects on the Downloads page of my web site below.
>
> Both done with web-pack and both instantiate blockrams.
>
> Nial Stewart
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
> FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
> www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk


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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 09-15-2003, 11:12 AM
Nial Stewart
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE

Clyde R. Shappee <[email protected]_world.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]_world.com...
> I just did a little experiment with the webpack software, instantiating a
> fifo in the block ram.... and the software black boxes it because it

doesn't
> know how to hook it up.
> The .edn file from the core generator is missing, and as such XST does

not
> know how to configure the block ram.
> This is consistent with information I received from the Xilinx Apps guy.
> Clyde


What are you trying to instantiate? If it's a component that you
previously generated from Coregen then it won't work as coregen
stitches whatever Blockrams together to get the structure you
need, creates a wrapper round them and gives it a sensible name.

If you try to instantiate the wrapper web-pack won't know what you're
talking about.

Have a look at the data sheet for whatever device you're targeting to
see what the blockrams should be called. As an example a 256* 8 bit dual
port
ram in SpartanIIE is RAMB4_S8_S8, you'll have to check the data sheet for
port names.

If you want bigger/wider structures than you get with one block ram you've
got to stitch them together yourself (with a wrapper if you want).


It would be almost a complete waste of time for Xilinx to release web-pack
if you couldn't access blockrams.


Nial.

------------------------------------------------
Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk






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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2003, 06:54 PM
Clyde R. Shappee
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE

Then, please enlighten us as to how to use the block rams with Web-pack, without
using the core generator.

I looked at your web page and did not see in your example projects how you did
it.

Clyde

Nial Stewart wrote:

> Clyde R. Shappee <[email protected]_world.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]_world.com...
> > I just did a little experiment with the webpack software, instantiating a
> > fifo in the block ram.... and the software black boxes it because it

> doesn't
> > know how to hook it up.
> > The .edn file from the core generator is missing, and as such XST does

> not
> > know how to configure the block ram.
> > This is consistent with information I received from the Xilinx Apps guy.
> > Clyde

>
> What are you trying to instantiate? If it's a component that you
> previously generated from Coregen then it won't work as coregen
> stitches whatever Blockrams together to get the structure you
> need, creates a wrapper round them and gives it a sensible name.
>
> If you try to instantiate the wrapper web-pack won't know what you're
> talking about.
>
> Have a look at the data sheet for whatever device you're targeting to
> see what the blockrams should be called. As an example a 256* 8 bit dual
> port
> ram in SpartanIIE is RAMB4_S8_S8, you'll have to check the data sheet for
> port names.
>
> If you want bigger/wider structures than you get with one block ram you've
> got to stitch them together yourself (with a wrapper if you want).
>
> It would be almost a complete waste of time for Xilinx to release web-pack
> if you couldn't access blockrams.
>
> Nial.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
> FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
> www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk


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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2003, 11:53 PM
Uwe Bonnes
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE

In comp.arch.fpga Clyde R. Shappee <[email protected]_world.com> wrote:
: Then, please enlighten us as to how to use the block rams with Web-pack, without
: using the core generator.

: I looked at your web page and did not see in your example projects how you did
: it.

Here is how I instantiate in in some verilog project:

RAMB4_S16_S16 ram0(.DOA(),.DOB(rdo_data_a),.ADDRA(rdo_wfifo_cnt) ,.ADDRB(rdo_rfifo_cnt),
.CLKA(!mclk_i),.CLKB(rclk),.DIA(dba_r[15:0]),.DIB(16'b0),
.ENA(1'b1),.ENB(1'b1),
.RSTA(1'b0),.RSTB(1'b0),.WEA(rdo_read_rrrr),.WEB(1 'b0));

RAMB4_S16_S16 ram1(.DOA(),.DOB(rdo_data_b),.ADDRA(rdo_wfifo_cnt) ,.ADDRB(rdo_rfifo_cnt),
.CLKA(!mclk_i),.CLKB(rclk),.DIA(dbb_r[15:0]),.DIB(16'b0),
.ENA(1'b1),.ENB(1'b1),
.RSTA(1'b0),.RSTB(1'b0),.WEA(rdo_read_rrrr),.WEB(1 'b0));

Hpe this helps.

Bye
--
Uwe Bonnes [email protected]

Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2003, 12:46 AM
John Providenza
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE

I used Webpack version 5.x a while ago and was able to
access block rams by infering them rather than instantiating
them. I don't know if this worked in version 4.x. For this
approach to work, you need to craft your Verilog code to match
the BRAM structure so the synthesizer could see that you REALLY
want BRAM and not distributed ram. It took me several iterations
to find the proper Verilog style.

Here's code that seemed to infer BRAM for a Spartan chip:

// __________________________________________________ __________
// IN Buffer
reg [7:0] in_buf [511:0];

reg [8:0] in_rd_addr;
always @(posedge clk)
if (fifo_rd_valid)
in_buf[in_ptr] <= fifo_rd_data;

always @(posedge clk)
in_rd_addr <= next_in_rd_ptr;

assign fast_rd_data = in_buf[in_rd_addr] ;


Good Luck!

John Providenza


Marc Guardiani <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<%[email protected]>...
> Matt,
>
> Thanks for the info. I looked at the Xilinx web site and what they are
> now calling Foundation is not what they had called Foundation
> previously. Previously, ISE started and Foundation ended with version
> 4.x (which used Aldec technology). What they are now calling Foundation
> is something completely different than what I was refering to. I stand
> corrected.
>
> Marc
>
>
> Matt wrote:
> > Marc,
> >
> > Xilinx has four versions of their ISE software. They are:
> >
> > 1) Webpack
> > 2) Ba***
> > 3) Foundation
> > 4) Alliance
> >
> > 1 and 2 are subsets of Foundation which has the XST synthesis tool. The
> > differentiator is that #3 has the full toolset with support for all Xilinx
> > devices. Numbers 1 and 2 have XST but only support the low to mid range
> > devices. Alliance is the third party flow which does not include XST.
> > It should be noted that XST does not support devices based on the 4000
> > architecture. i.e. 4000 family, Spartan/Spartan XL. All other families are
> > supported. If you need support for the 4000 stuff you need to go third
> > party.
> >
> > Hope this helps...
> >
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > "Marc Guardiani" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]
> >
> >>Are you going to be using ISE or Foundation? They are two completely
> >>different software packages. ISE is very similar to the Webpack (another
> >>reply you received describes the differences). Foundation is no longer
> >>supported by Xilinx and is based on third party software. Also
> >>Foundation will not do the newer FPGAs and ISE will not do the older

> >
> > FPGAs.
> >
> >>Dave wrote:
> >>
> >>>I am just about to go through a 115 page introduction tutorial on the

> >
> > XCESS
> >
> >>>website for using the Xilinx Webpack 4.x edition. However I will be

> >
> > using
> >
> >>>the ISE Foundation 4.x edition and want to know if I am wasting my time
> >>>reading the entire Webpack tutorial to learn how to use the ISE

> >
> > Foundation
> >
> >>>edition. I am assuming its all the same, with Webpack just having less
> >>>features. Anyone who is familiar with both editions that can let me know

> >
> > to
> >
> >>>go ahead with this or STOP - and find a tutorial at Xilinx instead (I

> >
> > need
> >
> >>>to install the software for their tutes I think) would be much

> >
> > appreciated.
> >
> >>>Initial stages will be purely schematic entry. VHDL will come later.
> >>>
> >>>Regards
> >>>Dave
> >>>
> >>>
> >>

> >
> >

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2003, 10:09 AM
Nial Stewart
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Webpack Vs. ISE

Clyde R. Shappee <[email protected]_world.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]_world.com...
> Then, please enlighten us as to how to use the block rams with Web-pack,

without
> using the core generator.


I already have.

"Have a look at the data sheet for whatever device you're targeting to
see what the blockrams should be called. As an example a 256* 8 bit dual
port ram in SpartanIIE is RAMB4_S8_S8, you'll have to check the data
sheet for port names."

And see Uwe's example above/below.

Spoon feeding bit.....

If you look in webpack/vhld/src/unisims/unisim_VCOMP.vhd you'll see
the models for all the rams supported. RAMB4 is supported in Spartan
devices (as specified in the SpartanII-E data sheet), I presume
RAMB16 configurations are supported in Virtex devices.

> I looked at your web page and did not see in your example projects how you

did
> it.


Download pico2spart.zip, unzip it and look at ../SW/picocode.vhd

This contains five blockram instantiations with the associated
configurations
containing the software for the Virtex picoblaze in a SpartanII.

These Blockrams are 1024 addresses* 4 bits.

For an example of a singla 256*16 ram download picoblaze.zip, then look at
.../sw/ROM_form.vhd . This is a template file, but it's exactly the way
the ram's instantiated in a real design.


Did you ask the Xilinx apps guy "Does web-pack support blockrams?", or
"Does web-pack support this ram I've generated with Coregen?" ?.

As I said, it would be almost a complete waste of time for Xilinx to
release web-pack if you couldn't get at the Rams.


Nial.

------------------------------------------------
Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk


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