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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2003, 12:51 AM
Kevin Neilson
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Posts: n/a
Default Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can be
compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a Shannon
entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have a
Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
theory applies to black holes?
-Kevin


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2003, 01:12 AM
Pete Fraser
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Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes


"Kevin Neilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s04...
> Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
> theory applies to black holes?


Yes. Hawking can.


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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2003, 01:21 AM
Mike Treseler
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Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

Kevin Neilson wrote:
> Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
> theory applies to black holes?


Sounds like just the place for a
First In Never Out (FINO) transmit buffer.

-- Mike Treseler

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2003, 01:36 AM
Austin Lesea
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Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

Kevin,

Really quite easy.

Just read http://www.mdpi.org/entropy/papers/e3010012.pdf

Now after you have read it, go get a stiff drink ....and then fall into a
troubled sleep.

As you toss and turn having nightmares about information horizons, and gravity
strings, remember what the White Rabbit said: "feed your hair."

How many bits can fit on the surface of a black hole? (2003)

How many Angel's can fit on the head of a pin? (1536)

A question for every age.

Austin

Kevin Neilson wrote:

> I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can be
> compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a Shannon
> entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have a
> Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
> was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
> theory applies to black holes?
> -Kevin


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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2003, 02:43 AM
Clay S. Turner
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes





"Austin Lesea" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>>

> How many bits can fit on the surface of a black hole? (2003)



Actually the entropy of a black hole works out to be about 10^66 bits/ cm^2.


Clay


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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2003, 04:39 AM
Jerry Avins
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Posts: n/a
Default OT Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

Mike Treseler wrote:

> Kevin Neilson wrote:
>
>> Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
>> theory applies to black holes?

>
>
> Sounds like just the place for a
> First In Never Out (FINO) transmit buffer.
>
> -- Mike Treseler
>

Is that FINO or AMONTILLADO?

jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 11-01-2003, 05:39 AM
Eric Jacobsen
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 20:43:36 -0500, "Clay S. Turner"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Austin Lesea" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>>>

>> How many bits can fit on the surface of a black hole? (2003)

>
>Actually the entropy of a black hole works out to be about 10^66 bits/ cm^2.
>
>Clay


I've worked with people denser than that.


Or so it seemed, anyway...


Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2003, 12:39 PM
santosh nath
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Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

"Kevin Neilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]_s04>...
> I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can be
> compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a Shannon
> entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have a
> Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
> was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
> theory applies to black holes?
> -Kevin


I am really curious to know how thermodynamic entropy differs from
Shannon's -if both based on "disorderness". Hawking's popular book
"brief history of time" has a chapter on "arrow of time" which
referred themodynamical entropy and at the same time "orderness" due
to expansion of universe- bit abstract!

Since we know entrpy of the universe increases - it is interesting
what will happen to Shannon's entropy (if it is related!)- does
information of the universe increase-big question!!!

santosh
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2003, 11:23 AM
Ian Okey
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

Mike Treseler <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Kevin Neilson wrote:
> > Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
> > theory applies to black holes?

>
> Sounds like just the place for a
> First In Never Out (FINO) transmit buffer.
>
> -- Mike Treseler


I had to debug somebody else's hardware that implemented a FINO

He had invented the wonderful new memory type... 2K by 8 WOM

Write-Only Memory :-)

Ian
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2003, 11:54 AM
John Smith
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes


"Kevin Neilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]_s04...
> I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can

be
> compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a

Shannon
> entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have

a
> Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
> was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
> theory applies to black holes?
> -Kevin
>
>


For the ignorant (me): what it Entropy?

Rich


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2003, 06:23 PM
Luiz Carlos
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

> I had to debug somebody else's hardware that implemented a FINO
>
> He had invented the wonderful new memory type... 2K by 8 WOM
>
> Write-Only Memory :-)
>
> Ian


Hi Ian.

Sorry but my WOM has 1Mbitx16, it´s implemented on strained silicon,
has a life expectancy of almost 10 write cycles and I think it doesn't
loose it contents when power is turned off (for obvious reasons I
couldn't test this)

I'm looking for funds to maintain this important research. Anyone?

Luiz Carlos
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2003, 07:26 PM
Austin Lesea
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

John,

Falling apart. What everything does (eventually).

What you and I are doing right now (getting older, and falling apart).

Austin

John Smith wrote:

> "Kevin Neilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]_s04...
> > I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can

> be
> > compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a

> Shannon
> > entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have

> a
> > Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
> > was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
> > theory applies to black holes?
> > -Kevin
> >
> >

>
> For the ignorant (me): what it Entropy?
>
> Rich


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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2003, 07:40 PM
James Calivar
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes


"Austin Lesea" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Kevin,
>
> Really quite easy.
>
> Just read http://www.mdpi.org/entropy/papers/e3010012.pdf
>
> Now after you have read it, go get a stiff drink ....and then fall into a
> troubled sleep.
>
> As you toss and turn having nightmares about information horizons, and

gravity
> strings, remember what the White Rabbit said: "feed your hair."
>


I thought it was "feed your head."


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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2003, 08:17 PM
Jerry Avins
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

John Smith wrote:

> "Kevin Neilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]_s04...
>
>>I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information can

>
> be
>
>>compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a

>
> Shannon
>
>>entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes have

>
> a
>
>>Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon. I
>>was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
>>theory applies to black holes?
>>-Kevin
>>
>>

>
>
> For the ignorant (me): what it Entropy?
>
> Rich
>

http://www.2ndlaw.com/ will be a good start. Note that if S is entropy, q
the amount of heat -- BTU, Calories -- and T absolute temperature,
S = Integral(dQ/T).
Simplifying: heat, like water, runs downhill, and unless something like a
waterwheel or a heat engine extracts energy when it does, some of what
had been available energy is permanently lost. The water or heat is all
still there, and so is the energy -- just not available. Lost available
energy shows up as increased entropy.

Two Laws of Thermodynamics have been stated thus:

You can't get something for nothing. Water had to be pumped up before it
ran down to turn the wheel.

You can't even break even. (The second law is about entropy.) Because of
inevitable inefficiencies -- friction or moving heat across a temperature
gradient, entropy will increase, and you won't get all of the energy out.

Let's leave the Third Law for some other time.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2003, 09:13 PM
daica nguyen
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

that's enough guys..., black hole normaly holds 1, or 2,...but sometimes up to 5 boys and girls (please check guiness book), noting to do with the surface except for its decoration attractiveness
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-03-2003, 10:31 PM
Tom Loredo
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

santosh nath wrote:
>
> I am really curious to know how thermodynamic entropy differs from
> Shannon's


There is some controversy about this. The two ideas are fundamentally
distinct and it is unfortunate that they have the same name. They
are related, of course, but the relationship is something that has
to be spelled out carefully. In my opinion the best work on this is
a paper Ed Jaynes wrote for the Am. J. Phys. You'll find it here:

http://bayes.wustl.edu/etj/node1.html

"Gibbs vs. Boltzmann Entropies", article 21. I believe Anton Garrett
wrote a lengthy paper spelling it out further based on Jaynes's argument;
I think it was in *Foundations of Physics* several years ago.

This isn't trivial stuff; good luck studying it!

-Tom

--

To respond by email, replace "somewhere" with "astro" in the
return address.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2003, 12:39 AM
Symon
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes


> > Kevin Neilson wrote:
> > > Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
> > > theory applies to black holes?

> >
> > Sounds like just the place for a
> > First In Never Out (FINO) transmit buffer.
> >
> > -- Mike Treseler

>
> I had to debug somebody else's hardware that implemented a FINO
>
> He had invented the wonderful new memory type... 2K by 8 WOM
>
> Write-Only Memory :-)
>
> Ian


Ian,
Signetics invented this 30 years ago!
try :- http://www.ariplex.com/tina/tsignet1.htm
Syms.


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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2003, 02:16 PM
John Smith
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes


"Jerry Avins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> John Smith wrote:
>
> > "Kevin Neilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]_s04...
> >
> >>I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information

can
> >
> > be
> >
> >>compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a

> >
> > Shannon
> >
> >>entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes

have
> >
> > a
> >
> >>Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon.

I
> >>was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
> >>theory applies to black holes?
> >>-Kevin
> >>
> >>

> >
> >
> > For the ignorant (me): what it Entropy?
> >
> > Rich
> >

> http://www.2ndlaw.com/ will be a good start. Note that if S is entropy, q
> the amount of heat -- BTU, Calories -- and T absolute temperature,
> S = Integral(dQ/T).
> Simplifying: heat, like water, runs downhill, and unless something like a
> waterwheel or a heat engine extracts energy when it does, some of what
> had been available energy is permanently lost. The water or heat is all
> still there, and so is the energy -- just not available. Lost available
> energy shows up as increased entropy.
>
> Two Laws of Thermodynamics have been stated thus:
>
> You can't get something for nothing. Water had to be pumped up before it
> ran down to turn the wheel.
>
> You can't even break even. (The second law is about entropy.) Because of
> inevitable inefficiencies -- friction or moving heat across a temperature
> gradient, entropy will increase, and you won't get all of the energy out.
>
> Let's leave the Third Law for some other time.
>
> Jerry
> --
> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
> ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
>


Aggghhhh.... I'm gonna be on 2ndlaw.com, and its sister, I may be a while...

Thanks for the answers guys. 'Lost' energy (non-recoverable energy) is my
summary. Correct?

Thanks again
JS


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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-04-2003, 04:42 PM
Austin Lesea
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

John,

Nope. 1st law says that energy is conserved. Can not lose it.

Austin


John Smith wrote:

> "Jerry Avins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > John Smith wrote:
> >
> > > "Kevin Neilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]_s04...
> > >
> > >>I read an article in "Scientific American" about how much information

> can
> > >
> > > be
> > >
> > >>compressed into a certain volume, and apparently all objects have a
> > >
> > > Shannon
> > >
> > >>entropy in addition to the thermodynamic entropy. Also, black holes

> have
> > >
> > > a
> > >
> > >>Shannon entropy that is based on the surface area of the event horizon.

> I
> > >>was totally lost. Can anybody else explain how Shannon's information
> > >>theory applies to black holes?
> > >>-Kevin
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > For the ignorant (me): what it Entropy?
> > >
> > > Rich
> > >

> > http://www.2ndlaw.com/ will be a good start. Note that if S is entropy, q
> > the amount of heat -- BTU, Calories -- and T absolute temperature,
> > S = Integral(dQ/T).
> > Simplifying: heat, like water, runs downhill, and unless something like a
> > waterwheel or a heat engine extracts energy when it does, some of what
> > had been available energy is permanently lost. The water or heat is all
> > still there, and so is the energy -- just not available. Lost available
> > energy shows up as increased entropy.
> >
> > Two Laws of Thermodynamics have been stated thus:
> >
> > You can't get something for nothing. Water had to be pumped up before it
> > ran down to turn the wheel.
> >
> > You can't even break even. (The second law is about entropy.) Because of
> > inevitable inefficiencies -- friction or moving heat across a temperature
> > gradient, entropy will increase, and you won't get all of the energy out.
> >
> > Let's leave the Third Law for some other time.
> >
> > Jerry
> > --
> > Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
> > ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
> >

>
> Aggghhhh.... I'm gonna be on 2ndlaw.com, and its sister, I may be a while...
>
> Thanks for the answers guys. 'Lost' energy (non-recoverable energy) is my
> summary. Correct?
>
> Thanks again
> JS


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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2003, 08:45 AM
rickman
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

Austin Lesea wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Nope. 1st law says that energy is conserved. Can not lose it.
>
> Austin
>
> John Smith wrote:
> >
> > Aggghhhh.... I'm gonna be on 2ndlaw.com, and its sister, I may be a while...
> >
> > Thanks for the answers guys. 'Lost' energy (non-recoverable energy) is my
> > summary. Correct?
> >
> > Thanks again
> > JS


John,

Don't let this confuse you. In reality "lost" energy is still energy.
But it is lost in the sense that you can't do anything useful with it.
It becomes spread out evenly as heat otherwise known as "disorder".
Only "orderly" forms of energy can be used.

Heat is only useful (orderly) if there is more of it here than there,
then you can get some useful work from it by tapping it as it flows from
here to there. But then both here and there are at the same temperature
and you can do no more work with that energy. In that sense, it is
"lost".

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2003, 09:56 AM
John Smith
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes


"rickman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Austin Lesea wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > Nope. 1st law says that energy is conserved. Can not lose it.
> >
> > Austin
> >
> > John Smith wrote:
> > >
> > > Aggghhhh.... I'm gonna be on 2ndlaw.com, and its sister, I may be a

while...
> > >
> > > Thanks for the answers guys. 'Lost' energy (non-recoverable energy) is

my
> > > summary. Correct?
> > >
> > > Thanks again
> > > JS

>
> John,
>
> Don't let this confuse you. In reality "lost" energy is still energy.
> But it is lost in the sense that you can't do anything useful with it.
> It becomes spread out evenly as heat otherwise known as "disorder".
> Only "orderly" forms of energy can be used.
>
> Heat is only useful (orderly) if there is more of it here than there,
> then you can get some useful work from it by tapping it as it flows from
> here to there. But then both here and there are at the same temperature
> and you can do no more work with that energy. In that sense, it is
> "lost".
>
> --
>
> Rick "rickman" Collins
>
> [email protected]
> Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
> removed.
>
> Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
> Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
> 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
> Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX


Rick

I did get the drift of it, hopefully the previous poster hadn't had his
morning coffee yet.

Thanks
JS


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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2003, 10:09 AM
Uwe Bonnes
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

In comp.arch.fpga rickman <[email protected]> wrote:

: Don't let this confuse you. In reality "lost" energy is still energy.
: But it is lost in the sense that you can't do anything useful with it.
: It becomes spread out evenly as heat otherwise known as "disorder".
: Only "orderly" forms of energy can be used.

Energy: Total
Exergy: Usable part of total energy
Anergy: Unusable part of total energy

: Heat is only useful (orderly) if there is more of it here than there,
: then you can get some useful work from it by tapping it as it flows from
: here to there. But then both here and there are at the same temperature
: and you can do no more work with that energy. In that sense, it is
: "lost".

Bye
--
Uwe Bonnes [email protected]

Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-07-2003, 03:50 PM
Jerry Avins
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Shannon Entropy for Black Holes

rickman wrote:

...

> Don't let this confuse you. In reality "lost" energy is still energy.
> But it is lost in the sense that you can't do anything useful with it.
> It becomes spread out evenly as heat otherwise known as "disorder".
> Only "orderly" forms of energy can be used.
>
> Heat is only useful (orderly) if there is more of it here than there,
> then you can get some useful work from it by tapping it as it flows from
> here to there. But then both here and there are at the same temperature
> and you can do no more work with that energy. In that sense, it is
> "lost".


Nicely put. A corollary is that when everything is at the same
temperature, nothing can be seen. Some electric ovens have a covered
eye hole so that one can see what's happening by swinging aside the flap
and peering in. There is often enough glow from the hot walls to show
the work. The work disappears at equilibrium, when it reaches the
temperature of the walls.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ

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