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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 05:50 PM
samiam
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Default PLD610

does anyone have any information about this chip?
I heard it mentioned in the same sentence as a 22v10 but I havent
been able to dig up any pin outs/schematics online.

Thanks
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 06:23 PM
John_H
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Default Re: PLD610

I think I did my first EP610 design (Altera's original PLD family) back in
1989.
Why do you want to know about what equates to a 400 year old man?

"samiam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> does anyone have any information about this chip?
> I heard it mentioned in the same sentence as a 22v10 but I havent
> been able to dig up any pin outs/schematics online.
>
> Thanks



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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 06:40 PM
samiam
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Default Re: PLD610

John_H wrote:
> I think I did my first EP610 design (Altera's original PLD family) back in
> 1989.
> Why do you want to know about what equates to a 400 year old man?


LOL
I am about to stock up on 200 of these chips ... and would jump at the
opportunity if they are ANYTHING like the 22v10 ...

Basically I need to stock up on these for my hobby work and I am being
offered an unbelievable price on them.

Problem is ... I dont have any info on these PLD's

What can you tell me about it?
How does it differ from the 22v10?
How many inputs?
How many outputs?
Number of Minterms?
Programmable output?
Registered output?

Thanmks
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 08:34 PM
mk
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Default Re: PLD610

On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 13:40:59 -0400, samiam
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John_H wrote:
>> I think I did my first EP610 design (Altera's original PLD family) back in
>> 1989.
>> Why do you want to know about what equates to a 400 year old man?

>
>LOL
>I am about to stock up on 200 of these chips ... and would jump at the
>opportunity if they are ANYTHING like the 22v10 ...
>
>Basically I need to stock up on these for my hobby work and I am being
>offered an unbelievable price on them.
>
>Problem is ... I dont have any info on these PLD's
>
>What can you tell me about it?
>How does it differ from the 22v10?
>How many inputs?
>How many outputs?
>Number of Minterms?
>Programmable output?
>Registered output?
>
>Thanmks


http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/classic.pdf
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 08:46 PM
Mike Treseler
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Default Re: PLD610

samiam wrote:

> I am about to stock up on 200 of these chips ... and would jump at the
> opportunity if they are ANYTHING like the 22v10 ...


You might look before you leap.

You could a buy brand new 3000a series
device (much better than a 22V10)
for $1.25 each at quantity 1.
http://www.buyaltera.com/scripts/par...okup=1,30,3076
Fully documented
http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/m3000a.pdf
free software
http://www.altera.com/products/softw...arwebmain.html


-- Mike Treseler
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 09:22 PM
Jim Granville
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Default Re: PLD610

samiam wrote:
> John_H wrote:
>
>> I think I did my first EP610 design (Altera's original PLD family)
>> back in 1989.
>> Why do you want to know about what equates to a 400 year old man?

>
>
> LOL
> I am about to stock up on 200 of these chips ... and would jump at the
> opportunity if they are ANYTHING like the 22v10 ...
>
> Basically I need to stock up on these for my hobby work and I am being
> offered an unbelievable price on them.
>
> Problem is ... I dont have any info on these PLD's
>
> What can you tell me about it?
> How does it differ from the 22v10?
> How many inputs?
> How many outputs?
> Number of Minterms?
> Programmable output?
> Registered output?


You have not asked how to program them yet, which might be
the most important question
You will need to generate code, and also get the code into the
chips.... ( which I believe are OTP )

-jg

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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 09:54 PM
John_H
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Default Re: PLD610

"Jim Granville" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> You have not asked how to program them yet, which might be
> the most important question
> You will need to generate code, and also get the code into the chips....
> ( which I believe are OTP )
>
> -jg


Some of the classic parts had the clear window on ceramic parts. But they
*all* required the dedicated Altera programmer (or 3rd party programmer with
appropriate adapter) and were not in-system programmable. We're talking 27
years ago.

There are better options.

I imagine you could get people to pay you to take inventory off their hands
if they still have some lying around... they're worth *that* much!


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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 10:34 PM
samiam
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Default Re: PLD610

> Some of the classic parts had the clear window on ceramic parts. But they
> *all* required the dedicated Altera programmer (or 3rd party programmer with
> appropriate adapter) and were not in-system programmable. We're talking 27
> years ago.


I was going to get some information before I made the leap ... And we
are not talking big money here ... something like $20 bucks for all 200
or so chips

But you raise a good point ... I need to be sure my device programmer
can handle it (I have a BP MICRO and a TOP 2048) ... and that I would
not need to invest in any new hardware or software (pal/pld assembler/
compiler)

Thanks again for the heads up
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 10:36 PM
samiam
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Default Re: PLD610

> http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/classic.pdf

Thank you very much!
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2006, 11:54 PM
Eric Smith
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Default Re: PLD610

samiam wrote:
> I am about to stock up on 200 of these chips ... and would jump at the
> opportunity if they are ANYTHING like the 22v10 ...


You're about to waste your money, IMNSHO. Especially if you don't already
have a universal programmer that can handle them.

And waste time having to UV erase them.

They're sorta like a PAL between the PAL20xx and PAL22V10. But they're
way inferior to something like an XC9500 series CPLD.

> Basically I need to stock up on these for my hobby work and I am being
> offered an unbelievable price on them.


If they're free, they're too expensive. (If a deal seems too good to
be true, it probably is.)

You can buy a brand-shiny-new Xilinx XC9536 in a PLCC for $3.30,
quantity one from Digikey. That has 36 macrocells, and is way better
than any of the old EPxxx parts. The XC9536XL part is 3.3V and costs
even less. And they're supported with current development software, and
are in-circuit programmable (no expensive "universal programmer" or UV
erasing necessary).

I'm sure Altera must make some nice inexpensive CPLDs these days too.

I've got scads of old EPLDs from various vendors, some of which were
quite nice parts *BACK THEN*, but I wouldn't dream of using any of
them even for hobby work today. Life's too short to spend it fighting
obsolete chips to save spending a dollar or two on a better, well-
supported modern part.

Eric
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2006, 02:33 PM
radarman
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Default Re: PLD610

I agree whole-heartedly - and believe me, I'm a miser when it comes to
parts spending for my hobby. I have some samples of Xilinx 3042 FPGA's
that I will never use. It's just not worth the effort of tracking down
archaic software and installing DOS on a machine.

Believe me, I'm working with an old design at work right now that uses
3 Xilinx 4010E's and a UV eraseable PROM. I had forgotten what a
serious PITA it is to have to wait 30 minutes to reprogram a device.
(fortunately, we have spares, so I just cycle them through the eraser
when we identify a change)

Then, there was the fun of trying to get a copy of ISE 4.2i - which
wasn't easy even at a fortune 500 company that used it several years
ago. I can't imagine trying to dig up the CD and a registration code as
a hobbyist.

Get a modern part that is JTAG programmable. Make sure it's supported
in either the ISE or the Quartus webpacks. The time you save is worth
way more than the cost difference, and you will get a better part to
boot. This is a golden age for hobbyists - as you can do an entire
design essentially for free, save the cost of parts, as long as you use
the economy versions - and today, the "economy" versions of most of
these parts are incredibly powerful - enough that the company I work
for has started seriously considering them for lower power applications
in lieu of Virtex and Stratix parts.

Check digilent - they have modern CPLD's on a DIP board that you can
directly mount in a 40 pin socket. These are perfect for prototyping -
and at $20 a piece, they aren't horrible. Once your design is ready,
you can get the bare part for under $3 or $4, and design a PCB. Much
simpler, easier - and probably even cheaper in the long run.

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2006, 05:29 PM
Stephen Williams
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Default Re: PLD610

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

radarman wrote:

> Believe me, I'm working with an old design at work right now that uses
> 3 Xilinx 4010E's and a UV eraseable PROM. I had forgotten what a
> serious PITA it is to have to wait 30 minutes to reprogram a device.
> (fortunately, we have spares, so I just cycle them through the eraser
> when we identify a change)
>
> Then, there was the fun of trying to get a copy of ISE 4.2i - which
> wasn't easy even at a fortune 500 company that used it several years
> ago. I can't imagine trying to dig up the CD and a registration code as
> a hobbyist.


This is an ideal opportunity for open source synthesizers. There
are lots of businesses that have legacy systems >5 years old that
they must support. (Heck, I encounter it myself in day job.) In
many cases, not only can you not find the tool chains you need,
you also can't get the right version of Windows (these tools are
bloody picky about Window/DOS versions) to run on a machine that
one can actually buy:-/


- --
Steve Williams "The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
steve at icarus.com But I have promises to keep,
http://www.icarus.com and lines to code before I sleep,
http://www.picturel.com And lines to code before I sleep."
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-18-2006, 11:19 PM
samiam
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: PLD610

> You're about to waste your money, IMNSHO. Especially if you don't already
> have a universal programmer that can handle them.


Point taken.
I wont invest in them ... especially after reading through my universal
programmer and NOT seeing them listed.

> If they're free, they're too expensive.


Ok

> You can buy a brand-shiny-new Xilinx XC9536 in a PLCC for $3.30,


I avoid CPLD's. seriously. I think they are OVERKILL for the stuff I do
and put me wayyyyy above the details I like to fool around with when I
am designing boards

I also hate messing with anything that I can NOT get in DIP form since
I build the boards at home.

Maybe as my exposure and experience designing and building boards at
home improves ... I may get to that point.

But for now I love simple PLD's ... 16R8' 22v10's for replacing 74xx
parts. Nothing more.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2006, 10:01 AM
Jim Granville
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Default Re: PLD610



samiam wrote:
>> You're about to waste your money, IMNSHO. Especially if you don't
>> already
>> have a universal programmer that can handle them.

>
>
> Point taken.
> I wont invest in them ... especially after reading through my universal
> programmer and NOT seeing them listed.
>
>> If they're free, they're too expensive.

>
>
> Ok
>
>> You can buy a brand-shiny-new Xilinx XC9536 in a PLCC for $3.30,

>
>
> I avoid CPLD's. seriously. I think they are OVERKILL for the stuff I do
> and put me wayyyyy above the details I like to fool around with when I
> am designing boards
>
> I also hate messing with anything that I can NOT get in DIP form since
> I build the boards at home.
>
> Maybe as my exposure and experience designing and building boards at
> home improves ... I may get to that point.
>
> But for now I love simple PLD's ... 16R8' 22v10's for replacing 74xx
> parts. Nothing more.


If you want a little more 'smarts' but still in DIP, look at the
ATF750CL from Atmel and the AnaChip PLDs
- these plug into a 22V10 socket, but have buried registers,
-jg

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