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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2007, 06:25 PM
Amit
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Posts: n/a
Default newbie to 16v8


Hello group,

I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
61v8.


does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
complete this?

Regards,
amit

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2007, 06:49 PM
Jonathan Bromley
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:25:35 -0000, Amit <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Hello group,
>
>I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
>designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
>need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
>61v8.
>
>
>does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
>complete this?


A GAL16V8, which I guess is what you mean, has only...
- 8 bits of storage
- 18 user I/O pins, of which one must be taken as a clock
in most cases
so your multiplier surely cannot be very big! You could make
a multiplier with two 4-bit inputs and an 8-bit result...
probably. If you have *lots* of 16V8s on a board, you
could make a bigger multiplier.

When I did a Google search for GAL16V8, the first hit I found
was the Lattice data sheet. (I used to know those devices
inside-out, but I haven't used one for so long that I thought
I'd better remind myself of the details.) Not a bad place to start.
--
Jonathan Bromley, Consultant

DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how
VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services

Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK
[email protected]
http://www.MYCOMPANY.com

The contents of this message may contain personal views which
are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11-10-2007, 07:00 PM
Amit
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

On Nov 10, 10:49 am, Jonathan Bromley <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:25:35 -0000, Amit <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Hello group,

>
> >I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
> >designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
> >need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
> >61v8.

>
> >does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
> >complete this?

>
> A GAL16V8, which I guess is what you mean, has only...
> - 8 bits of storage
> - 18 user I/O pins, of which one must be taken as a clock
> in most cases
> so your multiplier surely cannot be very big! You could make
> a multiplier with two 4-bit inputs and an 8-bit result...
> probably. If you have *lots* of 16V8s on a board, you
> could make a bigger multiplier.
>
> When I did a Google search for GAL16V8, the first hit I found
> was the Lattice data sheet. (I used to know those devices
> inside-out, but I haven't used one for so long that I thought
> I'd better remind myself of the details.) Not a bad place to start.
> --
> Jonathan Bromley, Consultant
>
> DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how
> VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services
>
> Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK
> [email protected]://www.MYCOMPANY.com
>
> The contents of this message may contain personal views which
> are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.



Hello Jonathan,

Thanks for your response. you are right, I did download it but one
thing that I need to know how can I find a right flow? and associate
it with a multiplier 4 by 4?
it seems there are other controlling inputs such as Vcc (or maybe I'm
wrong) but is there any example of an adder for instance?

Once again thanks.
amit

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2007, 12:43 AM
Peter Alfke
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

On Nov 10, 11:00 am, Amit <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Nov 10, 10:49 am, Jonathan Bromley <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:25:35 -0000, Amit <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > >Hello group,

>
> > >I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
> > >designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
> > >need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
> > >61v8.

>
> > >does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
> > >complete this?

>
> > A GAL16V8, which I guess is what you mean, has only...
> > - 8 bits of storage
> > - 18 user I/O pins, of which one must be taken as a clock
> > in most cases
> > so your multiplier surely cannot be very big! You could make
> > a multiplier with two 4-bit inputs and an 8-bit result...
> > probably. If you have *lots* of 16V8s on a board, you
> > could make a bigger multiplier.

>
> > When I did a Google search for GAL16V8, the first hit I found
> > was the Lattice data sheet. (I used to know those devices
> > inside-out, but I haven't used one for so long that I thought
> > I'd better remind myself of the details.) Not a bad place to start.
> > --
> > Jonathan Bromley, Consultant

>
> > DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how
> > VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services

>
> > Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK
> > [email protected]://www.MYCOMPANY.com

>

Amit,
you will not fnd a multiplier, nor even an adder. The chip has lots of
wide AND gates that can be ORed together, and that's the (very low)
level of abstraction you should use to design. Back to basics (or is
it forward to basics for you ?).
Good exercise in logic design, and in logical thinking.
Greetings to your teacher or prof.
Peter Alfke

> > The contents of this message may contain personal views which
> > are not the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.

>
> Hello Jonathan,
>
> Thanks for your response. you are right, I did download it but one
> thing that I need to know how can I find a right flow? and associate
> it with a multiplier 4 by 4?
> it seems there are other controlling inputs such as Vcc (or maybe I'm
> wrong) but is there any example of an adder for instance?
>
> Once again thanks.
> amit



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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2007, 05:48 AM
Jim Granville
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

Amit wrote:
> Hello group,
>
> I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
> designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
> need to implement a logical function


That should be easy.
Which logical function has your tutor asked for ?
What examples has he given ?

> and also design multiplier using 16v8.


How many bits wide ? - did the tutor say ?
One obvious ceiling is you only have 8 outputs, but there are other
lower ones.
One simple Multipler expression is a ROM, and a 2b x 2b multipler,
can fit in a 16x4 ROM - and that will likely fit into a 16V8.
The 22V10 will fit a larger multiplier.

-jg

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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2007, 04:56 PM
David Spencer
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8


"Amit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ups.com...
>
> Hello group,
>
> I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
> designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
> need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
> 61v8.
>
>
> does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
> complete this?
>
> Regards,
> amit
>


Your best starting point would be to ask your tutor why he thinks you need
to work with a technology that nobody has used for at least ten years. You
might be able to catch him after his lecture on valves (vacuum tubes) and
germanium transistors.


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2007, 06:48 PM
Jim Granville
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

David Spencer wrote:
> "Amit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] ups.com...
>
>>Hello group,
>>
>>I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
>>designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
>>need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
>>61v8.
>>
>>
>>does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
>>complete this?
>>
>>Regards,
>>amit
>>

>
>
> Your best starting point would be to ask your tutor why he thinks you need
> to work with a technology that nobody has used for at least ten years. You
> might be able to catch him after his lecture on valves (vacuum tubes) and
> germanium transistors.


Quite a few introductory courses are taught using a SPLD/CPLD
- after all, AND/OR/XOR Logic and D-FF have not changed

The student learns using Boolean equation entry, which teaches them
how the logic actually maps, and is also a common language in report files.

The devices come in DIP packages, and can also be easily vector
tested on device programmers, which brings the silicon inside
the design loop.

The 16V8 may not be seen much in new designs, but it is still active
in production [ We still buy ATF16V8BQL for production ]
and the modern 32 macrocell CPLD's are a pretty easy step from
the 16V8. Some courses could include both -depends on the hours allocated.

-jg






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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 11-11-2007, 11:31 PM
Nico Coesel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

"David Spencer" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Amit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected] oups.com...
>>
>> Hello group,
>>
>> I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
>> designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
>> need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
>> 61v8.
>>
>>
>> does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
>> complete this?
>>
>> Regards,
>> amit
>>

>
>Your best starting point would be to ask your tutor why he thinks you need
>to work with a technology that nobody has used for at least ten years. You
>might be able to catch him after his lecture on valves (vacuum tubes) and
>germanium transistors.


Are you sure modern fpga's work differently? The latest processors
still use the same base technology invented decades ago. I've learned
how processors / small computers work from books describing the 8080
while the 486 was readily available. The theory behind it however
still holds true for today (and probably many tomorows). In fact, old
technology is usually much simpler and easier to understand and the
documentation contains a lot more background information which is held
for granted nowadays. For instance try to find a datasheet from an
EPROM which lists the wavelength it needs to get erased... I had to
dig up a datasheet from 1982.

--
Reply to [email protected] (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2007, 12:12 AM
Peter Alfke
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

On Nov 11, 3:31 pm, [email protected] (Nico Coesel) wrote:
> "David Spencer" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Amit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected] oups.com...

>
> >> Hello group,

>
> >> I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
> >> designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
> >> need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
> >> 61v8.

>
> >> does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
> >> complete this?

>
> >> Regards,
> >> amit

>
> >Your best starting point would be to ask your tutor why he thinks you need
> >to work with a technology that nobody has used for at least ten years. You
> >might be able to catch him after his lecture on valves (vacuum tubes) and
> >germanium transistors.

>
> Are you sure modern fpga's work differently? The latest processors
> still use the same base technology invented decades ago. I've learned
> how processors / small computers work from books describing the 8080
> while the 486 was readily available. The theory behind it however
> still holds true for today (and probably many tomorows). In fact, old
> technology is usually much simpler and easier to understand and the
> documentation contains a lot more background information which is held
> for granted nowadays. For instance try to find a datasheet from an
> EPROM which lists the wavelength it needs to get erased... I had to
> dig up a datasheet from 1982.
>
> --
> Reply to [email protected] (punt=.)
> Bedrijven en winkels vindt U opwww.adresboekje.nl

That goes for many things. On an old car you could adjust the breaker
points and the carburator, on an old radio you could change the tubes,
and on even a new bike you can still change the chain and the bowden
wires,
Good as a tutorial, but how much time do you want to spend there?
Who needs to know the EPROM erasure wavelength of light when everybody
is using Flash, and no light?
On th other hand...
I get annoyed when designers blindly think that chips can add,
multiply, and perform a Fourier Transform, without any understanding
or appreciation of the underlying physics.
We need some balance...
Peter Alfke

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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2007, 12:44 AM
David Spencer
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8


"Peter Alfke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ps.com...
> Good as a tutorial, but how much time do you want to spend there?
> Peter Alfke
>


That was the point I was trying to make. Whilst understanding the concept of
implementing arbitrary logic functions using a sum of products architecture,
I can see little point in making someone develop a design to go in an
obsolescent part. Although most modern CPLDs still use sum-of-products
architecture, it is very unlikely that you would ever need to code a design
directly into such an architecture in this day and age. It would be akin to
getting someone to program a processor directly in machine code, ignoring
the perfectly good (and probably free) assembler that is available.


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2007, 01:35 AM
Jim Granville
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

Peter Alfke wrote:
> That goes for many things. On an old car you could adjust the breaker
> points and the carburator, on an old radio you could change the tubes,
> and on even a new bike you can still change the chain and the bowden
> wires,
> Good as a tutorial, but how much time do you want to spend there?
> Who needs to know the EPROM erasure wavelength of light when everybody
> is using Flash, and no light?
> On th other hand...
> I get annoyed when designers blindly think that chips can add,
> multiply, and perform a Fourier Transform, without any understanding
> or appreciation of the underlying physics.
> We need some balance...


Yes, knowing what you can't do, is important.
I suspect the tutor threw in the Multiplier question for exactly that
reason : To impress on the students what cannot fit into a device
You can fit a Multiplier into a 16V8, the question is up to what size!

-jg

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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2007, 01:41 AM
Jim Granville
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

David Spencer wrote:

> "Peter Alfke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] ps.com...
>
>>Good as a tutorial, but how much time do you want to spend there?
>>Peter Alfke
>>

>
>
> That was the point I was trying to make. Whilst understanding the concept of
> implementing arbitrary logic functions using a sum of products architecture,
> I can see little point in making someone develop a design to go in an
> obsolescent part. Although most modern CPLDs still use sum-of-products
> architecture, it is very unlikely that you would ever need to code a design
> directly into such an architecture in this day and age. It would be akin to
> getting someone to program a processor directly in machine code, ignoring
> the perfectly good (and probably free) assembler that is available.
>


You've lost me a little here ?

You write for SPLD in HDL - Boolean Equation Entry languages like
CUPL, ABEL, or others.

You can also write in Table form, or State engine form, all of
which port quite easily to higher end HDLs

It is all Text Editor / named variables / and comments in source code
stuff.

You never work at the JED fuse-file level ?

-jg



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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2007, 02:42 PM
David Spencer
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8


"Jim Granville" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> You never work at the JED fuse-file level ?
>


I did fifteen years ago, but not these days.



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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2007, 04:57 PM
Ray Andraka
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

Amit wrote:
> Hello group,
>
> I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
> designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
> need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
> 61v8.
>
>
> does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
> complete this?
>
> Regards,
> amit
>


With only 8 registers and product terms, you'd have to make it a bit
serial multiplier, and even then the parallel multiplicand is going to
limited in size. See the multipliers page on my website for details.
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  #15 (permalink)  
Old 11-12-2007, 06:59 PM
General Schvantzkoph
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:00:18 +0000, Amit wrote:

> On Nov 10, 10:49 am, Jonathan Bromley <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:25:35 -0000, Amit <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Hello group,

>>
>> >I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
>> >designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
>> >need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
>> >61v8.

>>
>> >does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
>> >complete this?

>>
>> A GAL16V8, which I guess is what you mean, has only... - 8 bits of
>> storage
>> - 18 user I/O pins, of which one must be taken as a clock
>> in most cases
>> so your multiplier surely cannot be very big! You could make a
>> multiplier with two 4-bit inputs and an 8-bit result... probably. If
>> you have *lots* of 16V8s on a board, you could make a bigger
>> multiplier.
>>
>> When I did a Google search for GAL16V8, the first hit I found was the
>> Lattice data sheet. (I used to know those devices inside-out, but I
>> haven't used one for so long that I thought I'd better remind myself of
>> the details.) Not a bad place to start. --
>> Jonathan Bromley, Consultant
>>
>> DOULOS - Developing Design Know-how
>> VHDL * Verilog * SystemC * e * Perl * Tcl/Tk * Project Services
>>
>> Doulos Ltd., 22 Market Place, Ringwood, BH24 1AW, UK
>> [email protected]://www.MYCOMPANY.com
>>
>> The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not
>> the views of Doulos Ltd., unless specifically stated.

>
>
> Hello Jonathan,
>
> Thanks for your response. you are right, I did download it but one
> thing that I need to know how can I find a right flow? and associate it
> with a multiplier 4 by 4?
> it seems there are other controlling inputs such as Vcc (or maybe I'm
> wrong) but is there any example of an adder for instance?
>
> Once again thanks.
> amit


The 16V8 is a 30 year old part, it's very tiny. Your question is like
asking how to build a house out of one brick, you can't do it. However
you can build a house out of a lot of bricks and in the same way you can
build a multiplier out of a lot of 16V8s. You can implement 4 carry save
adders in a 16v8 which you can use to build a Wallace tree. You can also
implement a 6 bit look ahead adder with a V8 which you can use to sum up
the carry save terms at the end of the pipe.
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2007, 02:31 AM
Amit
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

On Nov 12, 8:57 am, Ray Andraka <[email protected]> wrote:
> Amit wrote:
> > Hello group,

>
> > I'm new to this field and currently learning how 16v8 architecture is
> > designed. Of course, pretty confused but as my first experiement I
> > need to implement a logical function and also design multiplier using
> > 61v8.

>
> > does anybody know where I can get some information to be able to
> > complete this?

>
> > Regards,
> > amit

>
> With only 8 registers and product terms, you'd have to make it a bit
> serial multiplier, and even then the parallel multiplicand is going to
> limited in size. See the multipliers page on my website for details.


Hi Ray,

Thank your response. what is your webiste's domain?

Thanks,
ak

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2007, 01:04 PM
Brian Drummond
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:31:15 -0800 (PST), Amit <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Nov 12, 8:57 am, Ray Andraka <[email protected]> wrote:
>Hi Ray,


>Thank your response. what is your webiste's domain?


I think I'd try www.andraka.com just to see what happened...

- Brian
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2007, 02:50 PM
Ray Andraka
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

Amit wrote:

> Hi Ray,
>
> Thank your response. what is your webiste's domain?
>


http://www.andraka.com You can find the multipliers under the DSP tab,
or go directly to it with http://www.andraka.com/multipli.htm
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:15 AM
BobW
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8


"Brian Drummond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:31:15 -0800 (PST), Amit <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>On Nov 12, 8:57 am, Ray Andraka <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Hi Ray,

>
>>Thank your response. what is your webiste's domain?

>
> I think I'd try www.andraka.com just to see what happened...
>
> - Brian


I firmly believe that there needs to be some sort of universally-accepted
occupational guidance test put into place. Here is a candidate for the first
and only question:

1 - Find Ray Andraka's website on your own.

If one fails this test then that person would be forced to look deeply into
a mirror and would be strongly encouraged to consider a more menial
occupation.

Bob


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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2007, 06:39 PM
Amit
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: newbie to 16v8

On Nov 16, 12:15 am, "BobW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Brian Drummond" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]
>
> > On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:31:15 -0800 (PST), Amit <[email protected]>
> > wrote:

>
> >>On Nov 12, 8:57 am, Ray Andraka <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>Hi Ray,

>
> >>Thank your response. what is your webiste's domain?

>
> > I think I'd trywww.andraka.comjust to see what happened...

>
> > - Brian

>
> I firmly believe that there needs to be some sort of universally-accepted
> occupational guidance test put into place. Here is a candidate for the first
> and only question:
>
> 1 - Find Ray Andraka's website on your own.
>
> If one fails this test then that person would be forced to look deeply into
> a mirror and would be strongly encouraged to consider a more menial
> occupation.
>
> Bob


Ok bob.

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