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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-04-2003, 06:55 PM
Jay
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Default Flex6K configuration PROM

I'm investigation configuration PROMs for a EPF6010A (FLEX 6K). It looks
like the default choice is the EPC1441 which is not ISP or Flash.

Altera makes the EPC2 which is Flash/ISP but for some reason it's not
compatible with FLEX6K. Anyone know why? Any way to get it to work with
the EPF6010A?

I also noticed Atmel makes Altera compatible configuration PROMs that
are EEPROM/FLASH. Specifically, the AT17LV512A-10JC (8-PDIP).

Can anyone give me a ball park figure on the price for either Altera or
Atmel configuration ROM? DigiKey doesn't have them in stock and the
price for the Atmel 1MBit one they do have in stock scares me (> $45).

Today is not the best day for me to do battles with the
distributors...so ballparking would be nice.

Any other suggestions for cheapo configuration PROMs? I think awhile
back I saw someone mention parts from ISSI...would that work in this
case?

I'm not tied down to a Flex6K persay, I think however it's the cheapest
3.3V(core) FPGA Altera offers with a TQFP package.

Thanks!
Jay.

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2003, 07:14 AM
Jay
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Default Re: Flex6K configuration PROM

Thanks for the response Antti.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

> solutions: for Flex 6K, use cheap serial eeprom (ISSI or other) and cheap
> 8 pin microcontroller to boot up the serial eeprom, hmm for some smaller
> densities some serial eeproms could be used without that micro also,
> there was a mailing about this here some time ago


Yes, I guess I'll have to investigate those more indepth.

>
> use parallal flash and cheap pld to config
> use some micro with enough internal flash to get the config


Phyiscal space is a big problem in this case, otherwise a cheap FlashROM
and uC would do the trick perfectly.

> use some other part - this is probably best solution.
> there are many FPGAs in tqfp 100 and some should be cheap as well
> APA075 is 17USD qty one (non volatile FPGA, no confi mem)
> small XC2S are about 9USD qty 1
> hm not sure if cyclone comes in tqgp100
>
> but really if there is no special reason to use flex 6k DO NOT USE it


I am limited by two factors:

1. FPGA must *run* on 3.3V (not just be 3.3V compliant)
2. FPGA should be in 100-pin TQFP or smaller (smaller the better,
without resorting to BGA / CSP)

While most of the FPGAs have 3.3V I/O, they run on <=2.5V , which I
can't accomodate. The APA075 looks good but it also needs a 2.5V VDD.

As an aside, are the software design tools for the APA075 free/cheap ,
and what distributor did you get the pricing from?

Thanks!
Jay.




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  #3 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2003, 07:21 AM
Jay
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Default Re: Flex6K configuration PROM

Hi Martin,

Thanks for your response.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Jay <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > I'm investigation configuration PROMs for a EPF6010A (FLEX 6K). It looks
> > like the default choice is the EPC1441 which is not ISP or Flash.
> >
> > Altera makes the EPC2 which is Flash/ISP but for some reason it's not
> > compatible with FLEX6K. Anyone know why? Any way to get it to work with
> > the EPF6010A?
> >

>
> I used one a long time ago with a 6016A, worked fine. What makes you
> think they won't work?


Are you sure it was an EPC2?

They make mention several times not to use it on the Flex 6K family:

http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/dsconf.pdf , page 9, note 1:

"Do not use EPC2 devices to configure FLEX 6000 devices." , and again on
page 12, etc.

I'm wondering why the Altera guys haven't followed up in the NG, they
seem to be pretty attentive as of late.

> The Altera ones were about 20 last time I bought them. :-(


That doesn't sound too promising. How much were you paying for the
EPF6016As, if I might ask?

Thanks,
Jay.

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  #4 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2003, 07:31 AM
Antti Lukats
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Default Re: Flex6K configuration PROM

Jay <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected] >...
> I'm investigation configuration PROMs for a EPF6010A (FLEX 6K). It looks
> like the default choice is the EPC1441 which is not ISP or Flash.

[snip]
> I'm not tied down to a Flex6K persay, I think however it's the cheapest
> 3.3V(core) FPGA Altera offers with a TQFP package.


I had similar problem - ADI development board for high speed ADC has
Flex6K on the board and I needed to change the config - and found the
same story as you - no known solution from Altera, and even though
Atmel config roms claim Altera compatibility not clear if Atmel rom
would work with Flex 6K.

solutions: for Flex 6K, use cheap serial eeprom (ISSI or other) and cheap
8 pin microcontroller to boot up the serial eeprom, hmm for some smaller
densities some serial eeproms could be used without that micro also,
there was a mailing about this here some time ago

use parallal flash and cheap pld to config
use some micro with enough internal flash to get the config

use some other part - this is probably best solution.
there are many FPGAs in tqfp 100 and some should be cheap as well
APA075 is 17USD qty one (non volatile FPGA, no confi mem)
small XC2S are about 9USD qty 1
hm not sure if cyclone comes in tqgp100

but really if there is no special reason to use flex 6k DO NOT USE it

antti
http://www.graphord.com/forum
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2003, 08:19 AM
Martin Thompson
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Flex6K configuration PROM

Jay <[email protected]> writes:

> I'm investigation configuration PROMs for a EPF6010A (FLEX 6K). It looks
> like the default choice is the EPC1441 which is not ISP or Flash.
>
> Altera makes the EPC2 which is Flash/ISP but for some reason it's not
> compatible with FLEX6K. Anyone know why? Any way to get it to work with
> the EPF6010A?
>


I used one a long time ago with a 6016A, worked fine. What makes you
think they won't work?

> I also noticed Atmel makes Altera compatible configuration PROMs that
> are EEPROM/FLASH. Specifically, the AT17LV512A-10JC (8-PDIP).
>
> Can anyone give me a ball park figure on the price for either Altera or
> Atmel configuration ROM? DigiKey doesn't have them in stock and the
> price for the Atmel 1MBit one they do have in stock scares me (> $45).
>


The Altera ones were about 20 last time I bought them. :-(

HTH,
Martin

--
[email protected]
TRW Conekt, Solihull, UK
http://www.trw.com/conekt
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2003, 10:47 AM
Daniel Lang
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Default Re: Flex6K configuration PROM


"Jay" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ..
> > but really if there is no special reason to use flex 6k DO NOT USE it

>
> I am limited by two factors:
>
> 1. FPGA must *run* on 3.3V (not just be 3.3V compliant)
> 2. FPGA should be in 100-pin TQFP or smaller (smaller the better,
> without resorting to BGA / CSP)
>
> While most of the FPGAs have 3.3V I/O, they run on <=2.5V , which I
> can't accomodate. The APA075 looks good but it also needs a 2.5V VDD.
>


Why can't you generate a 2.5 volt power supply? You could probably get
away with a PN diode in the SOD-323 package and a 1K pulldown resistor
(to establish a minimum current) to drop the 3.3 volts to 2.6 volts.
The Altera EP1K10TC100 (ACEX 1K) would be perfect.

Daniel Lang


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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2003, 11:22 AM
Deni
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Flex6K configuration PROM

I have used ATMEL parts - they're much cheaper and reprogrammable.

for price comparison only, look at www.ebv.com (German distributor, has both
Atmel
and Altera) - they have price list search on-line...

regards

Dejan


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  #8 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2003, 08:45 AM
Martin Thompson
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Flex6K configuration PROM

Jay <[email protected]> writes:

> Hi Martin,
>
> Thanks for your response.
>
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > Jay <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> > > I'm investigation configuration PROMs for a EPF6010A (FLEX 6K). It looks
> > > like the default choice is the EPC1441 which is not ISP or Flash.
> > >
> > > Altera makes the EPC2 which is Flash/ISP but for some reason it's not
> > > compatible with FLEX6K. Anyone know why? Any way to get it to work with
> > > the EPF6010A?
> > >

> >
> > I used one a long time ago with a 6016A, worked fine. What makes you
> > think they won't work?

>
> Are you sure it was an EPC2?
>


Yep, I reprogrammed it and everything!

> They make mention several times not to use it on the Flex 6K family:
>
> http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/dsconf.pdf , page 9, note 1:
>
> "Do not use EPC2 devices to configure FLEX 6000 devices." , and again on
> page 12, etc.
>


So they do, I hadnot noticed that! I was going on the fact that they
"seemed" to be compatible with the older EPC1x series in terms of
pinout and timing. Indeed, table 5 is entitled "Table 4. APEX 20K,
FLEX 10K & FLEX 6000 Timing Parameters using EPC2 Devices at 3.3 V"

> I'm wondering why the Altera guys haven't followed up in the NG, they
> seem to be pretty attentive as of late.
>


Yeah, they would have the "right" answer, but I can certainly say it
worked for us. We made a few of these boxes, and some of them ended
up on the front of cars, and I never had any complaints.

> > The Altera ones were about 20UKP last time I bought them. :-(

>
> That doesn't sound too promising. How much were you paying for the
> EPF6016As, if I might ask?
>


Sorry, Ijust poked around our Purchase database and can't find any
record of them. I think we must have bought them from a different
supplier to usual :-( The EPC2s were there though, 18UKP.

Hope you get some official answers!

Cheers,
Martin

--
[email protected]
TRW Conekt, Solihull, UK
http://www.trw.com/conekt
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2003, 06:19 PM
Jay
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Posts: n/a
Default Re: Flex6K configuration PROM

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the info. I'll keep the group apraised of what I do.

Right now it looks like one of those SST parts with a uC helper. I
really don't see why a config ROM should cost so much (more than an
FPGA?)

Still no word from Altera (via e-mail or NG) though.

Thanks,
Jay.



In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Jay <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > Hi Martin,
> >
> > Thanks for your response.
> >
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> > > Jay <[email protected]> writes:
> > >
> > > > I'm investigation configuration PROMs for a EPF6010A (FLEX 6K). It looks
> > > > like the default choice is the EPC1441 which is not ISP or Flash.
> > > >
> > > > Altera makes the EPC2 which is Flash/ISP but for some reason it's not
> > > > compatible with FLEX6K. Anyone know why? Any way to get it to work with
> > > > the EPF6010A?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I used one a long time ago with a 6016A, worked fine. What makes you
> > > think they won't work?

> >
> > Are you sure it was an EPC2?
> >

>
> Yep, I reprogrammed it and everything!
>
> > They make mention several times not to use it on the Flex 6K family:
> >
> > http://www.altera.com/literature/ds/dsconf.pdf , page 9, note 1:
> >
> > "Do not use EPC2 devices to configure FLEX 6000 devices." , and again on
> > page 12, etc.
> >

>
> So they do, I hadnot noticed that! I was going on the fact that they
> "seemed" to be compatible with the older EPC1x series in terms of
> pinout and timing. Indeed, table 5 is entitled "Table 4. APEX 20K,
> FLEX 10K & FLEX 6000 Timing Parameters using EPC2 Devices at 3.3 V"
>
> > I'm wondering why the Altera guys haven't followed up in the NG, they
> > seem to be pretty attentive as of late.
> >

>
> Yeah, they would have the "right" answer, but I can certainly say it
> worked for us. We made a few of these boxes, and some of them ended
> up on the front of cars, and I never had any complaints.
>
> > > The Altera ones were about 20UKP last time I bought them. :-(

> >
> > That doesn't sound too promising. How much were you paying for the
> > EPF6016As, if I might ask?


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