FPGA Central

Rick Collins wrote:

> Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
>

>>>>Because they are a fair representation of the costs associated with
>>>>small numbers of parts ordered through distribution to allow for a
>>>>profitable business by the distis and reps.
>>>
>>>
>>>But, again, why doesn't the same argument apply to CPUs, for which
>>>there are half a dozen distributors in most towns, fairly happily
>>>distributing the things for a couple of percent profit margin.
>>
>>You say it. There are half a dozend shop selling cpus per town.
>>You go there, get a cpu, no questions asked, no questions answered.
>>They wouldn't be able to answer anyway.
>>
>>There may be one FPGA representaive per state. And you ask a lot of
>>questions. Not because you're more stupid than a cpu buyer, but
>>because placing a cpu and applying an FPGA are completely different.
>
>
> That part is true, but I think most of the expense is by the maker, the
> disti only has one support person for any given manufacturer. It is not
> that much of a cost burden for them. And they will very much limit the
> amount of support they give you if you are not a large customer.
>

Unfortunately this as wrong, as you can get wrong.
This may have been this way years ago and it proved wrong. The
distributors realized that luckily. The business works a bit
different. There are companies who want a new product and pay for the
development. There are those who do a development and there are others
who actually manufacture the parts. The first mentioned company sells
the final products then. Now who needs the support, and who buys the
most parts ?
As developper, I seldom buy more than 10 pieces. But also I introduce
the new technologies into many other companies, be they my costomers
or may they become my customers. Meaning there is no sense in flooding
those who buy the most parts with PR materials. The decisions are done
long befoe they buy the parts.

Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

Tim wrote:
> Austin Lesea wrote:
>
>
>>We can't seem to convince disti's to work for free
>
>
> So why don't you sell off your web pages for people
> who don't want FAE support and the rest?

The price curves are all political/Marketing decisions.

Sometimes IC makers promote ICs through disti's at (say) the 10K
price for ALL lower volumes.

Why ? - It's a great marketing ramp tool, and gets their device onto
designers radar.
For those design-ins that hit 10K, it has real benefit, and for
the others that did not, what did it REALLY cost them ? -
In silicon terms very little, and maybe a couple of lunches for the
Distis to convince them this will actually seed sales, and maybe
some coverage/support payments.

Another sales-seed path is web sales.
Microchip do this very well - Xilix could learn there...

Now, all that activity occurs mainly in devices looking to push
growth.

I've seen it with Motorola and their newest FLASH uC, and also
IIRC with the Coolrunner made by - oh yes, Xilinx.
Now, of course they CAN do the same with FPGA's, but as they don't
NEED to, until Altera does, not much will change....

-jg

Jim Granville wrote:
> Tim wrote:
>> Austin Lesea wrote:
>>
>>
>>> We can't seem to convince disti's to work for free
>>
>>
>> So why don't you sell off your web pages for people
>> who don't want FAE support and the rest?
>
> The price curves are all political/Marketing decisions.
>
> Sometimes IC makers promote ICs through disti's at (say) the 10K
> price for ALL lower volumes.


Sometimes I feel that X would get a better result by
using distributors whose primary business was
distributing computer cases or bananas or other
low-tech stuff. Ego-free distribution.

And the low-tech/web/... distribution should sell only
the fastest speed grade, cutting the parts count by two
or three.

Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
>
> Rick Collins wrote:
> > That part is true, but I think most of the expense is by the maker, the
> > disti only has one support person for any given manufacturer. It is not
> > that much of a cost burden for them. And they will very much limit the
> > amount of support they give you if you are not a large customer.
> >
>
> Unfortunately this as wrong, as you can get wrong.
> This may have been this way years ago and it proved wrong. The
> distributors realized that luckily. The business works a bit
> different. There are companies who want a new product and pay for the
> development. There are those who do a development and there are others
> who actually manufacture the parts. The first mentioned company sells
> the final products then. Now who needs the support, and who buys the
> most parts ?
> As developper, I seldom buy more than 10 pieces. But also I introduce
> the new technologies into many other companies, be they my costomers
> or may they become my customers. Meaning there is no sense in flooding
> those who buy the most parts with PR materials. The decisions are done
> long befoe they buy the parts.

I think we may have a bit of a language barrier, so your points are not
completely clear. I am sure the salesmen know the difference between a
small company building a small volume product and a small company
building a large volume product for another company. On the other hand,
I have been told point blank that it can be very hard for the FAEs and
salesmen to track a project between companies in this way and as a
result, they do not get the credit (or the profit) from the ultimate
sale. So they are very reluctant to devote much time to such projects.
I got this straight from the horses mouth (so to speak).

They are much more inclined to assist the companies who design the
products they sell in large numbers and as a result you can count on
both support and a good parts price.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

rickman wrote:
> Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
>
>>Rick Collins wrote:
>>
>>>That part is true, but I think most of the expense is by the maker, the
>>>disti only has one support person for any given manufacturer. It is not
>>>that much of a cost burden for them. And they will very much limit the
>>>amount of support they give you if you are not a large customer.
>>>
>>
>>Unfortunately this as wrong, as you can get wrong.
>>This may have been this way years ago and it proved wrong. The
>>distributors realized that luckily. The business works a bit
>>different. There are companies who want a new product and pay for the
>>development. There are those who do a development and there are others
>>who actually manufacture the parts. The first mentioned company sells
>>the final products then. Now who needs the support, and who buys the
>>most parts ?
>>As developper, I seldom buy more than 10 pieces. But also I introduce
>>the new technologies into many other companies, be they my costomers
>>or may they become my customers. Meaning there is no sense in flooding
>>those who buy the most parts with PR materials. The decisions are done
>>long befoe they buy the parts.
>
>
> I think we may have a bit of a language barrier, so your points are not
> completely clear. I am sure the salesmen know the difference between a
> small company building a small volume product and a small company
> building a large volume product for another company. On the other hand,
> I have been told point blank that it can be very hard for the FAEs and
> salesmen to track a project between companies in this way and as a
> result, they do not get the credit (or the profit) from the ultimate
> sale. So they are very reluctant to devote much time to such projects.
> I got this straight from the horses mouth (so to speak).
>
> They are much more inclined to assist the companies who design the
> products they sell in large numbers and as a result you can count on
> both support and a good parts price.
>

Ok. My points. It may work the way you described where there are
plenty of big companies doing big projects. Over here, many big
companies are a mere shaddow of themselves after the new economy
took over and they were rationalized to death or near death.
Many new small businesses took over the lead in applying technology.
I'm lucky that my distributor, selling Altera parts (amongst others),
takes the time to provide me with, compared with my sales volume,
excessive support.
Yes, we may talk about who the project is for.


Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

"Rick Collins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Steve wrote:> > So why are your small quantity prices so inflated?
>
> Perhaps you should take an econ class, all kidding aside. I had a very
> brief one in high school and the most basic concept (next to guns vs.
> butter) is that of fixed costs vs. marginal costs. Even though they
> don't *make* the parts in 100 unit lots, there are fixed costs
> associated with selling them in 100 unit lots. This mainly has to do
> with support, I would expect.
>
> But there is also the issue of motivation. If you are running a company
> that has customers buying literally millions of parts a year and
> customers buying 100's of parts a year, are you going to give the small
> customer anywhere near the same prices as the big customer? No, you are
> going to shave every possible penny on the price you must to keep the
> big customer from buying the competitor's parts. The 100 unit customer
> is not even a consideration.

But _every_ big customer started as a small customer, and if you can
get people trained up and familiar with your P&R software and
design process it's a big risk for them to change to a competitor.

The problem is that if X does this A will _have_ to follow suit.
It's an oligopoly, it's in both their interests to keep low volume
prices up.


> Besides, if you are buying only 100 of a part, is it a big issue if you
> pay 2x for the part? If you are building a product, you are likely
> selling the product for 3, 5 or even 10x your parts cost. Otherwise you
> will be losing a little on each one you sell, and will be out of
> business soon.

It depends what the product it. If it's a custom product for
someone the BOM cost is probably insignificant in the overall
product development cost.

If you're a small company trying to get a novel product out it
can be a very big issue, FPGA pricing is likely to dominate
your overall product cost, making the product viable or not.


Nial

------------------------------------------------
Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk

Rick Collins <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Rene Tschaggelar wrote:

> > The cost is at the FPGA representative, distributing the stuff.
> > They get the questions asked.
>
> No, the distis only have as much markup as the maker allows. I have
> been though the quotation cycle and nothing gets done without Xilinx
> authorizing it.


So Xilinx /do/ fix their prices. Surely this is against competition laws??


--
Steve

[email protected] (Steve) wrote in message news:<[email protected] om>...
> Rene Tschaggelar <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > > I can understand that attitude for people buying ten thousand chips;
> > > but where do you expect people to get the experience with FPGAs that
> > > they have with microprocessors, when state-of-the-art FPGAs are two
> > > orders of magnitude more expensive and an order of magnitude less
> > > convenient to acquire?
> >
> > The cost is at the FPGA representative, distributing the stuff.
> > They get the questions asked.
>
>
> Xilinx have a revenue of $1.2bn according to this:
>
> http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=xlnx
>
> Are you seriously trying to say that the cost of an FPGA
> representative being asked questions has anything other than a
> negligible effect on the prices of FPGAs?

In-state factory FAEs, Disty FAEs. Sales teams that must be incentivized
to drum up demand for new parts. Then customers who go out and convert
their FPGA to CGAs as soon as production ramps up.

FPGAs are not like CPUs. They are often prototype platforms.
Low volume, abandoned by the customer as soon as the design is
stable and can be converted to a CGA or ASIC.

FPGAs are inexpensive in my view, and the software tools are
amazing. It's a good time to be an engineer.

But if you know a way to bring the equivalent of a Xilinx offering
for 25% of the price, join the marketplace, please.

Steve wrote:
> Austin Lesea <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Steve,
>>
>>Quite frankly, I am amazed at how folks think about this. You have
>>obviously never thought about that computer on your desk, and how it can
>>be sold for $499!
>
>
>
> I don't know about the US PC prices, but in the UK you can make your
> own PC for not that much more than you buy a new ready-built PC from a
> shop. Compare that to Xilinx where small quantities are a few hundred
> percent more expensive than in large quantities.
>

Oh really?

You can layout the motherboard, buy all of the components, fab the
motherboard, get all the eproms programmed, etc etc etc.

Sure.

Austin

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] om...
> So Xilinx /do/ fix their prices. Surely this is against competition laws??

If Xilinx colluded with other FPGA manufacturers to have a fixed price where
each competitor agrees not to undercut the other, they would be guilty of
price fixing -- this is not the case. When you go to the store to buy
Tostitos (a different form of chips) you often see the price is pre-marked
on the bag - surely this is a form of price fixing! In reality, this is
setting a suggested price; some stores have a different price sticker on top
of the pre-printed amount. Semiconductor manufacturers provide their
distributors and sales people with price books that give parts and grades
for what is available. There is no harm in this. Better prices can be had,
but only if you TALK with the people involved, either the Xilinx sales folks
or the distributor's sales people.

Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
>
> Ok. My points. It may work the way you described where there are
> plenty of big companies doing big projects. Over here, many big
> companies are a mere shaddow of themselves after the new economy
> took over and they were rationalized to death or near death.
> Many new small businesses took over the lead in applying technology.
> I'm lucky that my distributor, selling Altera parts (amongst others),
> takes the time to provide me with, compared with my sales volume,
> excessive support.
> Yes, we may talk about who the project is for.

Ask your distributor how they will be compensated for the sales that go
into the product you are designing. If they are lucky, you have been
able to identify both the company you are doing this for as well as the
product name. I was told that this information is "registered" with the
manufacturer and they get credit for the sales no matter which
distributor actually makes the sale. But if the product can not be
tracked this way, they get nothing.

There is also some incentive on your part (or your customer's) to
provide this tracking info. If they quote you a better than list price
to get the design win, this better price will only be good through that
distributor since they get a price cut from the manufacturer. But other
distis who are not on the registered design win will not get the better
price and will likely have to charge a bit more.

At least this is how it was described to me.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

Steve wrote:
>
> Rick Collins <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
>
> > > The cost is at the FPGA representative, distributing the stuff.
> > > They get the questions asked.
> >
> > No, the distis only have as much markup as the maker allows. I have
> > been though the quotation cycle and nothing gets done without Xilinx
> > authorizing it.
>
> So Xilinx /do/ fix their prices. Surely this is against competition laws??

I think I misspoke (or is it mistyped?). I should have said, the distis
only have as much *markdown* as the makers allow. This is just a matter
of the manufacturer giving a discount on a qualified design win. The
disti is not going to sell the parts at a loss. So to get a better
price the manufacturer has to agree to a lower price to the disti for
this customer.

I don't think that is illegal. Heck, they do this for the government
all the time.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] om...
> Eric Smith <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Austin wrote:
> > > Quite frankly, I am amazed at how folks think about this. You have
> > > obviously never thought about that computer on your desk, and how it
can
> > > be sold for $499! Or even your car, just go price the parts
> > > individually some time.
> >
> > Thomas Womack <[email protected]> writes:
> > > I've often priced the parts for building a computer, and they add up
> > > to something within 15% of the price of buying the computer from Dell.
> >
> > You may have priced the subassemblies such as the motherboard, CD-ROM
> > drive, etc. Try pricing the actual components (chips, passives, etc.)
in
> > small quantity. You'll be lucky if you can get a total BOM cost less
> > than five times Dell's price.
>
> The total BOM cost in small quantities is irrelevant because you can
> buy motherboards from as little as £40 (~$60) in the shops. The issue
> is that if you buy Xilinx parts in large quantities then you're
> alright, if you don't buy in large quantities then you have to put up
> with high unit prices so those that want to buy high volume chips in
> small quantities don't benefit from the economies of scale for these
> parts.

"The motherboard price is irrelevant because you can buy computers for as
little as $299."
The point WAS that buying the individual parts cost significantly more. The
motherboards DO have huge production runs that push the cost of the bare
board below $10 - a value I had considered absurdly low when I worked on
projects with 25-125/mo production levels. With 1k-10k per month production
levels now, we're seeing prices around $10 bare-board prices for our
motherboard-sized assemblies. The motherboard manufacturers get large
discounts because of volumes. The technical support goes to very few
engineers for a short time to produce the massive quantity. The "Cost of
Sales" is a very big factor in any industry and isn't much different for
selling to a small company versus selling to a conglomerate for similar
products (at very different volumes).

The market works because small companies still make money (if they're
properly managed by people who understand what it takes to build and sell
products profitably). If small companies are mismanaged, they will fail.
If large companies are mismanaged, they will go bunkrupt without management
intervention. Weeding out the people with unrealistic ideas of what the
market should do for them so they can make the profit they need (on a
product that isn't worth what it *should* cost for the appropriate margins)
will help to elevate the overall quality of products offered.

Again, see Economics.

Austin Lesea <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Steve wrote:
> > Austin Lesea <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >>Steve,
> >>
> >>Quite frankly, I am amazed at how folks think about this. You have
> >>obviously never thought about that computer on your desk, and how it can
> >>be sold for $499!
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know about the US PC prices, but in the UK you can make your
> > own PC for not that much more than you buy a new ready-built PC from a
> > shop. Compare that to Xilinx where small quantities are a few hundred
> > percent more expensive than in large quantities.
> >
>
> Oh really?


Really. If you bought all the components from a relatively cheap place
like:

http://www.scan.co.uk/

I'd bet you could make the same spec PC yourself for a similar price
to what you'd pay for a built one from the UK's leading PC retailer:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/


> You can layout the motherboard, buy all of the components, fab the
> motherboard, get all the eproms programmed, etc etc etc.


Why would I want to lay the motherboard out, buy all of the single
components etc etc blah blah when I can buy them from a shop??

The problem with Xilinx products is that unless you buy in large
quantities you can't get them at a reasonable unit price.


> Sure.


What irrelevant "analogy" are you going to come out with next; FGPAs
in small quantities are excellent value for money because try making
your own out of individual transistors??...

--
Steve

[email protected] (William Wallace) wrote in message news:<[email protected] om>...
> [email protected] (Steve) wrote in message news:<[email protected] om>...
> > Rene Tschaggelar <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> > Xilinx have a revenue of $1.2bn according to this:
> >
> > http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=xlnx
> >
> > Are you seriously trying to say that the cost of an FPGA
> > representative being asked questions has anything other than a
> > negligible effect on the prices of FPGAs?
>
> In-state factory FAEs, Disty FAEs. Sales teams that must be incentivized
> to drum up demand for new parts. Then customers who go out and convert
> their FPGA to CGAs as soon as production ramps up.
>
> FPGAs are not like CPUs. They are often prototype platforms.
> Low volume, abandoned by the customer as soon as the design is
> stable and can be converted to a CGA or ASIC.


Read the statements that the Xilinx suits say about ASICs vs FPGAs,
they say that ASICs are frequently being *replaced* by FPGAs.


> FPGAs are inexpensive in my view,


In large quantities, not in small quantities.


> and the software tools are
> amazing. It's a good time to be an engineer.


Do you work for a large company that buys FPGAs in large quantities by
any chance?


> But if you know a way to bring the equivalent of a Xilinx offering
> for 25% of the price, join the marketplace, please.


My point is that unless you buy in large quantities then small or
start-up companies can't put Xilinx parts in their products because
they're too expensive.


--
Steve

"Nial Stewart" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>. ..

> It's an oligopoly, it's in both their interests to keep low volume
> prices up.

> If you're a small company trying to get a novel product out it
> can be a very big issue, FPGA pricing is likely to dominate
> your overall product cost, making the product viable or not.


Well summed up!


--
Steve

If you build something in small volume, everything is expensive: design
effort, pc-boards, most components, testing, marketing, advertising,
selling, servicing etc. You must have a really good product to absorb
all these high costs. That's life.
Peter Alfke
================================

Steve wrote:

> My point is that unless you buy in large quantities then small or
> start-up companies can't put Xilinx parts in their products because
> they're too expensive.
>
> --
> Steve

rickman wrote:

> Rene Tschaggelar wrote:
>
>>Ok. My points. It may work the way you described where there are
>>plenty of big companies doing big projects. Over here, many big
>>companies are a mere shaddow of themselves after the new economy
>>took over and they were rationalized to death or near death.
>>Many new small businesses took over the lead in applying technology.
>>I'm lucky that my distributor, selling Altera parts (amongst others),
>>takes the time to provide me with, compared with my sales volume,
>>excessive support.
>>Yes, we may talk about who the project is for.
>
>
> Ask your distributor how they will be compensated for the sales that go
> into the product you are designing. If they are lucky, you have been
> able to identify both the company you are doing this for as well as the
> product name. I was told that this information is "registered" with the
> manufacturer and they get credit for the sales no matter which
> distributor actually makes the sale. But if the product can not be
> tracked this way, they get nothing.
>
> There is also some incentive on your part (or your customer's) to
> provide this tracking info. If they quote you a better than list price
> to get the design win, this better price will only be good through that
> distributor since they get a price cut from the manufacturer. But other
> distis who are not on the registered design win will not get the better
> price and will likely have to charge a bit more.
>
> At least this is how it was described to me.
>

I have some understanding for it. On the other hand I'm not
complaining about prices. 20 years ago we made fast electronics
with ECL. A few gates on a big board. Took a lot of power and
it had to be tweaked for nanoseconds. The whole job then took us
6 months for the two of us. I can do the same now with just one
small CPLD chip. With a doublesided layout. Say in 3 weeks.

We recently had some faster wishes. Spend 100k for an ASIC.
It didn't work out finally.

The current CPLDs and FPGAs are excellent value.

Rene

On a sunny day (Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:21:48 -0800) it happened Peter Alfke
<[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:

>If you build something in small volume, everything is expensive: design
>effort, pc-boards, most components, testing, marketing, advertising,
>selling, servicing etc. You must have a really good product to absorb
>all these high costs. That's life.
>Peter Alfke
Hey, of cause things are expensive.
Now log in to www.microchip.com
Find a PIC, you can enter a quantity and order right there.
Whats your problem?
Perfect for small business.
WYSIWYG

Jan Panteltje wrote:
>
> On a sunny day (Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:21:48 -0800) it happened Peter Alfke
> <[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:
>
> >If you build something in small volume, everything is expensive: design
> >effort, pc-boards, most components, testing, marketing, advertising,
> >selling, servicing etc. You must have a really good product to absorb
> >all these high costs. That's life.
> >Peter Alfke
> Hey, of cause things are expensive.
> Now log in to www.microchip.com
> Find a PIC, you can enter a quantity and order right there.
> Whats your problem?
> Perfect for small business.

And you will pay some 3 or 4 times what you would pay if you were buying
1000's. I know, I have looked.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

Mike Treseler <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Andy Peters wrote:
>
> > It's great if you have
> > a relationship with a distributor, but once they find out that you
> > only want to build a handful of prototypes or whatever, they're not
> > interested. There has to be a way for the small garage shop guys to
> > get parts.
>
>
> try this: http://www.arrow.com/
> (o) Part Description
> enter "acex" in the box
> click (Search)
>
> On page two there are qty=1 parts for under $20 you can order Online.
> Ground shipping is $8
>
> I have never used acex or online ordering,
> but it looks like a viable option not requiring
> any relationship with a distributor.

Actually, Mike, Arrow is pretty good. They have much better prices
than DigiKey, even for small quantities, and the online ordering is
easy.

It's just that I chose a Xilinx CPLD for a project, and Brand X is not
in Arrow's line card. In retrospect, the EPM7128AE in 100-pin TQFP
would've done the job as well as the XCR3128 in the same package,
although the CoolRunner is almost half the (onesy-twosy) price. Too
bad the footprints aren't compatible.

--a

"John_H" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] om...
> > So Xilinx /do/ fix their prices. Surely this is against competition laws??
>
> If Xilinx colluded with other FPGA manufacturers to have a fixed price where
> each competitor agrees not to undercut the other, they would be guilty of
> price fixing -- this is not the case.


There's different forms of price-fixing; collusion with competing
companies is one form, like this:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/s...899174,00.html

that's not the type of price-fixing I'm on about. This is the kind of
price-fixing I'm on about:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/...ile/389962.stm

which is price-fixing by ordering distributors to charge certain
prices or face the consequences, such as loss of the right to sell
that car manufacturer's cars or worse trade terms.


> When you go to the store to buy
> Tostitos (a different form of chips) you often see the price is pre-marked
> on the bag - surely this is a form of price fixing!


You have to look at each situation within the context in which it is
in. Crisps selling in a supermarket are hardly just one of two brands
that are available, and I have *never* seen a pre-priced packet of
anything in a supermarket that wasn't a decent price, and I used to
work in a supermarket.


> In reality, this is
> setting a suggested price; some stores have a different price sticker on top
> of the pre-printed amount. Semiconductor manufacturers provide their
> distributors and sales people with price books that give parts and grades
> for what is available. There is no harm in this. Better prices can be had,
> but only if you TALK with the people involved, either the Xilinx sales folks
> or the distributor's sales people.


And what volume per annum would TALKING to the people start getting
you discounts? 50k per annum or some such ridiculously high figure
that start-ups cannot get to?


--
Steve

Steve,

If you never ask, you will never know (how many is 'enough').

I had an email from someone on this group, who asked, and was pleased
with the result. If you are going to order 25 a month, for the next
year, that is a lot more useful information than a single order of 25!

Austin

Steve wrote:
> "John_H" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected] .com...
>>
>>>So Xilinx /do/ fix their prices. Surely this is against competition laws??
>>
>>If Xilinx colluded with other FPGA manufacturers to have a fixed price where
>>each competitor agrees not to undercut the other, they would be guilty of
>>price fixing -- this is not the case.
>
>
>
> There's different forms of price-fixing; collusion with competing
> companies is one form, like this:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/s...899174,00.html
>
> that's not the type of price-fixing I'm on about. This is the kind of
> price-fixing I'm on about:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/...ile/389962.stm
>
> which is price-fixing by ordering distributors to charge certain
> prices or face the consequences, such as loss of the right to sell
> that car manufacturer's cars or worse trade terms.
>
>
>
>> When you go to the store to buy
>>Tostitos (a different form of chips) you often see the price is pre-marked
>>on the bag - surely this is a form of price fixing!
>
>
>
> You have to look at each situation within the context in which it is
> in. Crisps selling in a supermarket are hardly just one of two brands
> that are available, and I have *never* seen a pre-priced packet of
> anything in a supermarket that wasn't a decent price, and I used to
> work in a supermarket.
>
>
>
>>In reality, this is
>>setting a suggested price; some stores have a different price sticker on top
>>of the pre-printed amount. Semiconductor manufacturers provide their
>>distributors and sales people with price books that give parts and grades
>>for what is available. There is no harm in this. Better prices can be had,
>>but only if you TALK with the people involved, either the Xilinx sales folks
>>or the distributor's sales people.
>
>
>
> And what volume per annum would TALKING to the people start getting
> you discounts? 50k per annum or some such ridiculously high figure
> that start-ups cannot get to?
>
>
> --
> Steve

This is really simple, Capitalism 101:

Manufacturer invents and makes part.
Uses seval competing distributors to sell the part to the public.
Manufacturer optimizes his profit by charging distributor a certain
price, and also publishes a pricebook with "Manufacturer Recommended
Resale Price" MSRP.
Distributor can sell in any quantity and for any price he wants, high or
low, but he will try to optimize his profit.
Customer will buy at the lowest possible price consistent with the
desired level of service and support.
This is true for food, shirts, cars, and ICs. For Tiffany's, Nordstrom,
Safeway and CostCo.

But rest assured that we are seriously looking at ways to improve the
plight of the low-volume customer. Some of your complaints did not fall
on deaf ears.

Peter Alfke
===========================

Austin Lesea wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> If you never ask, you will never know (how many is 'enough').
>
> I had an email from someone on this group, who asked, and was pleased
> with the result. If you are going to order 25 a month, for the next
> year, that is a lot more useful information than a single order of 25!
>
> Austin
>
> Steve wrote:
> > "John_H" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >>"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected] .com...
> >>
> >>>So Xilinx /do/ fix their prices. Surely this is against competition laws??
> >>
> >>If Xilinx colluded with other FPGA manufacturers to have a fixed price where
> >>each competitor agrees not to undercut the other, they would be guilty of
> >>price fixing -- this is not the case.
> >
> >
> >
> > There's different forms of price-fixing; collusion with competing
> > companies is one form, like this:
> >
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/s...899174,00.html
> >
> > that's not the type of price-fixing I'm on about. This is the kind of
> > price-fixing I'm on about:
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/...ile/389962.stm
> >
> > which is price-fixing by ordering distributors to charge certain
> > prices or face the consequences, such as loss of the right to sell
> > that car manufacturer's cars or worse trade terms.
> >
> >
> >
> >> When you go to the store to buy
> >>Tostitos (a different form of chips) you often see the price is pre-marked
> >>on the bag - surely this is a form of price fixing!
> >
> >
> >
> > You have to look at each situation within the context in which it is
> > in. Crisps selling in a supermarket are hardly just one of two brands
> > that are available, and I have *never* seen a pre-priced packet of
> > anything in a supermarket that wasn't a decent price, and I used to
> > work in a supermarket.
> >
> >
> >
> >>In reality, this is
> >>setting a suggested price; some stores have a different price sticker on top
> >>of the pre-printed amount. Semiconductor manufacturers provide their
> >>distributors and sales people with price books that give parts and grades
> >>for what is available. There is no harm in this. Better prices can be had,
> >>but only if you TALK with the people involved, either the Xilinx sales folks
> >>or the distributor's sales people.
> >
> >
> >
> > And what volume per annum would TALKING to the people start getting
> > you discounts? 50k per annum or some such ridiculously high figure
> > that start-ups cannot get to?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steve

This is really simple, Capitalism 101:

Manufacturer invents and makes part.
Uses seval competing distributors to sell the part to the public.
Manufacturer optimizes his profit by charging distributor a certain
price, and also publishes a pricebook with "Manufacturer Recommended
Resale Price" MSRP.
Distributor can sell in any quantity and for any price he wants, high or
low, but he will try to optimize his profit.
Customer will buy at the lowest possible price consistent with the
desired level of service and support.
This is true for food, shirts, cars, and ICs. For Tiffany's, Nordstrom,
Safeway and CostCo.

But rest assured that we are seriously looking at ways to improve the
plight of the low-volume customer. Some of your complaints did not fall
on deaf ears.

Peter Alfke
===========================

Austin Lesea wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> If you never ask, you will never know (how many is 'enough').
>
> I had an email from someone on this group, who asked, and was pleased
> with the result. If you are going to order 25 a month, for the next
> year, that is a lot more useful information than a single order of 25!
>
> Austin
>
> Steve wrote:
> > "John_H" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >>"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected] .com...
> >>
> >>>So Xilinx /do/ fix their prices. Surely this is against competition laws??
> >>
> >>If Xilinx colluded with other FPGA manufacturers to have a fixed price where
> >>each competitor agrees not to undercut the other, they would be guilty of
> >>price fixing -- this is not the case.
> >
> >
> >
> > There's different forms of price-fixing; collusion with competing
> > companies is one form, like this:
> >
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/s...899174,00.html
> >
> > that's not the type of price-fixing I'm on about. This is the kind of
> > price-fixing I'm on about:
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/...ile/389962.stm
> >
> > which is price-fixing by ordering distributors to charge certain
> > prices or face the consequences, such as loss of the right to sell
> > that car manufacturer's cars or worse trade terms.
> >
> >
> >
> >> When you go to the store to buy
> >>Tostitos (a different form of chips) you often see the price is pre-marked
> >>on the bag - surely this is a form of price fixing!
> >
> >
> >
> > You have to look at each situation within the context in which it is
> > in. Crisps selling in a supermarket are hardly just one of two brands
> > that are available, and I have *never* seen a pre-priced packet of
> > anything in a supermarket that wasn't a decent price, and I used to
> > work in a supermarket.
> >
> >
> >
> >>In reality, this is
> >>setting a suggested price; some stores have a different price sticker on top
> >>of the pre-printed amount. Semiconductor manufacturers provide their
> >>distributors and sales people with price books that give parts and grades
> >>for what is available. There is no harm in this. Better prices can be had,
> >>but only if you TALK with the people involved, either the Xilinx sales folks
> >>or the distributor's sales people.
> >
> >
> >
> > And what volume per annum would TALKING to the people start getting
> > you discounts? 50k per annum or some such ridiculously high figure
> > that start-ups cannot get to?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steve