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-   -   Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File (http://www.fpgacentral.com/group/showthread.php?t=57415)

Rob 01-21-2006 02:59 AM

Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
Hello.

Can anyone direct me to a piece of Xilinx literature that explains how to
load more than 1 config file into program flash (XCF16P).

Many thanks,
Rob



Antti Lukats 01-21-2006 09:10 AM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 

"Rob" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]
> Hello.
>
> Can anyone direct me to a piece of Xilinx literature that explains how to
> load more than 1 config file into program flash (XCF16P).
>
> Many thanks,
> Rob
>

http://help.xilant.com/FPGA:Multiboot

Platform Flash support design revisions but not multi boot

if you need to select which design starts then you need separate controller
to select the active revsion this can be small microcontroller or PLD. but
then if you have a PLD alredy then it makes more sense to use cheap SPI
flash and forget the platfrom flash

xilinx has some PLD based example to control the platform flash, loook at
the their web

Antti



Rob 01-21-2006 01:28 PM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
All I want to do is change the select bits on the PROM, initiate a
configuration cycle, and have the FPGA loaded with a new/different
configuration. Is this possible? If so, how does one create an .mcs file
with two configurations? Or is it another file extention?

thank you,
rob


"Antti Lukats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Rob" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:[email protected]
>> Hello.
>>
>> Can anyone direct me to a piece of Xilinx literature that explains how to
>> load more than 1 config file into program flash (XCF16P).
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> Rob
>>

> http://help.xilant.com/FPGA:Multiboot
>
> Platform Flash support design revisions but not multi boot
>
> if you need to select which design starts then you need separate
> controller to select the active revsion this can be small microcontroller
> or PLD. but then if you have a PLD alredy then it makes more sense to use
> cheap SPI flash and forget the platfrom flash
>
> xilinx has some PLD based example to control the platform flash, loook at
> the their web
>
> Antti
>




Antti Lukats 01-21-2006 01:54 PM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
"Rob" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]
> All I want to do is change the select bits on the PROM, initiate a
> configuration cycle, and have the FPGA loaded with a new/different
> configuration. Is this possible? If so, how does one create an .mcs file
> with two configurations? Or is it another file extention?


well that is where you need external microcontroller or PLD to select
between active config

you can also select by jumpers but you can not select from FPGA which
revision is loaded from Platform Flash

the revision select pins must be controlled by some additional circuitry !!

if you wire them to the FPGA then they are reset to defaults and you can not
select which config is loaded

so if you are happy with jumpers selecting the config then its all ok, just
add 2 revisions to the PROM when writing it and connect a swithc or
jumpers to the rev select pins of the PROM

Antti



Ray Andraka 01-21-2006 02:54 PM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
Antti Lukats wrote:
> "Rob" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:[email protected]
>
>>All I want to do is change the select bits on the PROM, initiate a
>>configuration cycle, and have the FPGA loaded with a new/different
>>configuration. Is this possible? If so, how does one create an .mcs file
>>with two configurations? Or is it another file extention?

>
>
> well that is where you need external microcontroller or PLD to select
> between active config
>
> you can also select by jumpers but you can not select from FPGA which
> revision is loaded from Platform Flash
>
> the revision select pins must be controlled by some additional circuitry !!
>
> if you wire them to the FPGA then they are reset to defaults and you can not
> select which config is loaded
>
> so if you are happy with jumpers selecting the config then its all ok, just
> add 2 revisions to the PROM when writing it and connect a swithc or
> jumpers to the rev select pins of the PROM
>
> Antti
>
>


You'll need to use a parallel ROM rather than the serial one so that you
can select the configuration. The configuration select needs a little
bit of logic outside of the FPGA to hold the configuration select bits
while the FPGA is being reconfigured...unless you use partial
reconfiguration, in which case you just have to be careful that the part
the controls the reconfiguration stays alive. If you go for the partial
reconfiguration, you'll still need something outside to bootstrap the
initial design that has the configuration controller in it.

I've done whole FPGA configuration with a configuration select on
several designs. One of them is documented (although I don't recall
there being much detail on the reconfiguration scheme) in my paper on an
FPGA based radar environment simulator from about 8 years ago. In that
case, a parallel ROM held 16 (I think) FPGA configurations. A CPLD,
which IIRC was a Lattice 1032, held the selection registers and the
configuration state machine. Configuration in this case was initiated
with a command from a VME interface. It managed the configuration of
four XC4025E's. The hooks were in the design to allow any of the FPGAs
to initiate a reconfiguration, but as I recall we didn't use that
capability.

Another one that comes to mind was a universal card reader design on a
XC3020 (now I am really dating myself) that would self reconfigure after
determining what kind of card was inserted. That one also used a CPLD
to manage reconfiguration from a parallel PROM, but in that case it
would start up with a default configuration, then when the FPGA
application was ready for a reconfiguration, it would output a
configuration code and go signal to the CPLD, and the CPLD would then
handle the FPGA reconfiguration using a simple state machine.

Those were in the days before Xilinx could do partial reconfiguration,
and it worked just fine. So, yes it can be done, and it doesn't take a
very complicated external circuit to do it. In fact, I think the PLD
and parallel ROM needed actually cost less than the serial ROM for a
stock configuration circuit.

Antti Lukats 01-21-2006 03:10 PM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
"Ray Andraka" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]
> Antti Lukats wrote:
>> "Rob" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> news:[email protected]
>>
>>>All I want to do is change the select bits on the PROM, initiate a
>>>configuration cycle, and have the FPGA loaded with a new/different
>>>configuration. Is this possible? If so, how does one create an .mcs
>>>file with two configurations? Or is it another file extention?

>>
>>
>> well that is where you need external microcontroller or PLD to select
>> between active config
>>
>> you can also select by jumpers but you can not select from FPGA which
>> revision is loaded from Platform Flash
>>
>> the revision select pins must be controlled by some additional circuitry
>> !!
>>
>> if you wire them to the FPGA then they are reset to defaults and you can
>> not select which config is loaded
>>
>> so if you are happy with jumpers selecting the config then its all ok,
>> just add 2 revisions to the PROM when writing it and connect a swithc
>> or jumpers to the rev select pins of the PROM
>>
>> Antti

>
> You'll need to use a parallel ROM rather than the serial one so that you
> can select the configuration. The configuration select needs a little bit
> of logic outside of the FPGA to hold the configuration select bits while
> the FPGA is being reconfigured...unless you use partial reconfiguration,
> in which case you just have to be careful that the part the controls the
> reconfiguration stays alive. If you go for the partial reconfiguration,
> you'll still need something outside to bootstrap the initial design that
> has the configuration controller in it.
>
> I've done whole FPGA configuration with a configuration select on several
> designs. One of them is documented (although I don't recall there being
> much detail on the reconfiguration scheme) in my paper on an FPGA based
> radar environment simulator from about 8 years ago. In that case, a
> parallel ROM held 16 (I think) FPGA configurations. A CPLD, which IIRC
> was a Lattice 1032, held the selection registers and the configuration
> state machine. Configuration in this case was initiated with a command
> from a VME interface. It managed the configuration of four XC4025E's. The
> hooks were in the design to allow any of the FPGAs to initiate a
> reconfiguration, but as I recall we didn't use that capability.
>
> Another one that comes to mind was a universal card reader design on a
> XC3020 (now I am really dating myself) that would self reconfigure after
> determining what kind of card was inserted. That one also used a CPLD to
> manage reconfiguration from a parallel PROM, but in that case it would
> start up with a default configuration, then when the FPGA application was
> ready for a reconfiguration, it would output a configuration code and go
> signal to the CPLD, and the CPLD would then handle the FPGA
> reconfiguration using a simple state machine.
>
> Those were in the days before Xilinx could do partial reconfiguration, and
> it worked just fine. So, yes it can be done, and it doesn't take a very
> complicated external circuit to do it. In fact, I think the PLD and
> parallel ROM needed actually cost less than the serial ROM for a stock
> configuration circuit.


Ray the OP asked for solution using XCF16!

XCF16 can hold 2 designs, but in order to select them the select
must be either fixed jumpers or then additional PLD that controls
the revision select inputs of the XCF16. Xilinx has a coolrunner
design that does that, but in my opinion too, its really nonsense
to add a PLD to XCFxxP as the same PLD could also control
a SPI flash and provide way more flexibility then the use of
XCFxxPP + PLD and would be cheaper as well.


Antti
























Ray Andraka 01-21-2006 08:08 PM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
Antti Lukats wrote:

> Ray the OP asked for solution using XCF16!
>
> XCF16 can hold 2 designs, but in order to select them the select
> must be either fixed jumpers or then additional PLD that controls
> the revision select inputs of the XCF16. Xilinx has a coolrunner
> design that does that, but in my opinion too, its really nonsense
> to add a PLD to XCFxxP as the same PLD could also control
> a SPI flash and provide way more flexibility then the use of
> XCFxxPP + PLD and would be cheaper as well.
>
>
> Antti
>

Antti,

I missed that he wanted to use an XCF16. I think he would only need 3
bits of a simple PLD to pull it off. My first thought was that the edge
of CF and program catches the revision, but it is the rising edge which
means by the time that happens the FPGA is alread brain-dead. He just
needs to capture the two rev bits in a pair of flip-flops and needs
something to toggle program/CF and he should be good to go. If he's got
a PLD already on the board for something else, this circuit could go int
he corner of the PLD.

Rob 01-22-2006 12:23 AM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
I'm familiar with the hardware setup. What I'm looking for is a document
that tells one how to creat the prom file with the tool.


"Antti Lukats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> "Rob" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:[email protected]
>> All I want to do is change the select bits on the PROM, initiate a
>> configuration cycle, and have the FPGA loaded with a new/different
>> configuration. Is this possible? If so, how does one create an .mcs
>> file with two configurations? Or is it another file extention?

>
> well that is where you need external microcontroller or PLD to select
> between active config
>
> you can also select by jumpers but you can not select from FPGA which
> revision is loaded from Platform Flash
>
> the revision select pins must be controlled by some additional circuitry
> !!
>
> if you wire them to the FPGA then they are reset to defaults and you can
> not select which config is loaded
>
> so if you are happy with jumpers selecting the config then its all ok,
> just add 2 revisions to the PROM when writing it and connect a swithc or
> jumpers to the rev select pins of the PROM
>
> Antti
>




Antti Lukats 01-22-2006 07:02 AM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 

"Rob" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]
> I'm familiar with the hardware setup. What I'm looking for is a document
> that tells one how to creat the prom file with the tool.
>


actually I guessed that, well you just need to start impact and 'enable
revisionong'
then you can assign different bitstreams to different revisions.

antti



Rob 01-23-2006 09:34 PM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
Antti:

I went through the whole procedure, generated the mult-revision .mcs file,
and it doesn't configure the FPGA (V2PRO). I can program the flash
(non-revision mode) with either of the 2 config files individulally and
configuration works fine.

I have to compress the .bit files of the 2 designs, when generating the
multi-revision .mcx file, because two uncompressed .bit files are too big
for the XCF16PVO48C PROM that I'm using.

Any thoughts?

Rob

"Antti Lukats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Rob" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:[email protected]
>> I'm familiar with the hardware setup. What I'm looking for is a document
>> that tells one how to creat the prom file with the tool.
>>

>
> actually I guessed that, well you just need to start impact and 'enable
> revisionong'
> then you can assign different bitstreams to different revisions.
>
> antti
>




Antti Lukats 01-23-2006 10:25 PM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
"Rob" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]
> Antti:
>
> I went through the whole procedure, generated the mult-revision .mcs file,
> and it doesn't configure the FPGA (V2PRO). I can program the flash
> (non-revision mode) with either of the 2 config files individulally and
> configuration works fine.
>
> I have to compress the .bit files of the 2 designs, when generating the
> multi-revision .mcx file, because two uncompressed .bit files are too big
> for the XCF16PVO48C PROM that I'm using.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Rob


there are several 'small print' need to know things about the platform
flash, check all errata and answer records. you are enabling compress in
bitgen options right? there are problems with the compress done by the
platform flash, check the platform flash /impact user guide.

sorry I dont know the direct answer. I do know there are issues, also some
issues are related to some date codes only so check all relevant materials,
if nothing helps open webcase, ie the usual path.well as WebCase support is
now done from China I doubt if that brings anything.

For me the platform flash are on DO NOT USE list. I just have worked with
them so I know something about them - like details of the programming what
is still not published (and will never be) by Xilinx. Had to reverse the
algorithm from SVF files :(

Antti



Austin Lesea 01-23-2006 10:44 PM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
Antti,

Now that is just not fair.

-snip-

....WebCase support is
> now done from China I doubt if that brings anything.


That is just not true.

Austin


Peter Alfke 01-24-2006 01:27 AM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 

Antti Lukats wrote:
> "
> if nothing helps open webcase, ie the usual path.well as WebCase support is
> now done from China I doubt if that brings anything.


Antti, you are smart, energetic, and imaginative, but why do you write
such nonsense?
You have no reason to assume that TechSupport for US or Europe would
come out of China. You just made that up, didn't you ? Hurts your
credibility!
Peter Alfke


Peter Alfke 01-24-2006 01:27 AM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 

Antti Lukats wrote:
> "
> if nothing helps open webcase, ie the usual path.well as WebCase support is
> now done from China I doubt if that brings anything.


Antti, you are smart, energetic, and imaginative, but why do you write
such nonsense?
You have no reason to assume that TechSupport for US or Europe would
come out of China. You just made that up, didn't you ? Hurts your
credibility!
Peter Alfke


Antti Lukats 01-24-2006 08:43 AM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
"Peter Alfke" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected] oups.com...
>
> Antti Lukats wrote:
>> "
>> if nothing helps open webcase, ie the usual path.well as WebCase support
>> is
>> now done from China I doubt if that brings anything.

>
> Antti, you are smart, energetic, and imaginative, but why do you write
> such nonsense?
> You have no reason to assume that TechSupport for US or Europe would
> come out of China. You just made that up, didn't you ? Hurts your
> credibility!
> Peter Alfke
>

You right Peter,

I am not fair. The life isnt either.

But I am not making anything up. This is something I do not do. (Sure I am
wrong sometimes, that has happened).

1) All my latest WebCase's are handled from China or at least from people
with chinese names.
2) someone else (I assume from US) reported the same for his 3 last
WebCases, he also called and reached answer machine in chinese.

So thats why I assumed that the _global_ WebCase support has been moved to
China/chinese. What I said was/is true for me as to my best knowledge of the
time of my writing. I did not pay attention to the WebCase email names until
someone else pointed my attention to it, then I looked at my cases and I had
to agree that its all handled by chinese now. Maybe it isnt, and it was just
a co-incident. And sure a superior suport could also be provided from china.
Nothing wrong with.

All I was about to say is that I have even less trust (in timely resolved
issues) from Xilinx websupport then before (before == when EU support was
handled from Ireland and not from China). Maybe China support will be
better, only time can tell that, but for the time being I feel that I am my
best Xilinx FAE as in vast majority of cases I have had to fix the Xilinx
related issues myself.

Like yesterday - I take OPB_SPI core, I set SPI clock ratio, send out 2
bytes to SPI. Works with loopback testing. But with external SPI flash it
doesnt work. After hours and hours troubleshooting I connect oscilloscope
onto SPI clock and what I see? 7 clocks are normal with programmed clock
width then clock pulse of 20 nanoseconds, then again 7 normal clocks and
again 20 nanoseconds pulse. Sure this works with loopback test code provided
with Xilinx.

For heavens sake there should a way to get something as simple as SPI master
to work without the need of connecting an DSO to the FPGA !? I could not
belive that 20ns pulse (1 OPB clock). OPB_SPI is part of EDK for long long
time, how come this is possible? Has anyone used it before ? Ok, later on I
found some xilinx AR as well, talking about clock glitches when data and
clock change at the same time. But when I use EDK, and EDK IP cores, I would
expect that at least the simplest ones really work, without the need of
scoping the signals or searching AR database for related issues. Or is it
too much to hope for?

If you work with Xilinx products then things like that happen every other
day almost.

I talked about this thing with the fellow engineers around, their comment
was: "well thats how they do it, let you to find and fix their problems".
Sure this is how MicroSoft does it. This is why so many hate MicroSoft. I
like FPGA's. I like very much. But my tolerance level of accepting bugs and
erratas is getting lower and lower. I am not getting paid to find bugs. So
arent others who open WebCases and help Xilinx to fix their products and
services.

I have stated many times that I could be very valuable testing Xilinx
software and helping to improve it, I think others here at c.a.f. have made
suggestion that I should have early beta test access. I do not. It took me 3
minutes to cause fatal crash close of ISE 8.1 after it was released. If the
Xilinx Software goes worse the same rate, I will never install ISE 10.1 on
my workstation.

So I am getting more and more frustrated seeing more and more issues with
Xilinx products and services. Issues that take my time. Time that I would
rather spend with my family or just doing my job, which currently isnt bug
hunting.

I am still energetic, and I would love to use all of my smart imagination to
improve Xilinx products, but being on the field and just fighting with the
Xilinx bugs (while it isnt my job) is not helping Xilinx much. It hurts.
Anyone.

I would like to help, but I just dont how.

I have setup open public access bug tracker database where I will enter all
the bugs with Xilinx products that I will find. In a small hope that it
helps others to save their time to avoid the issues or apply workarounds if
those are available.


--
Antti Lukats
http://www.xilant.com



Antti Lukats 01-24-2006 08:47 AM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
"Austin Lesea" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]
> Antti,
>
> Now that is just not fair.
>
> -snip-
>
> ...WebCase support is
>> now done from China I doubt if that brings anything.

>
> That is just not true.
>
> Austin
>

Sorry Austin,

sometimes I dont know who is inside of me..

I should have self-censored the post, but I am not making anything up.
I commented from my current knowledge. See my longer reply to Peter.

--
Antti Lukats
http://www.xilant.com



Jim Granville 01-24-2006 11:17 AM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
Antti Lukats wrote:

<snip>
> You right Peter,
>
> I am not fair. The life isnt either.
>
> But I am not making anything up. This is something I do not do. (Sure I am
> wrong sometimes, that has happened).
>
> 1) All my latest WebCase's are handled from China or at least from people
> with chinese names.
> 2) someone else (I assume from US) reported the same for his 3 last
> WebCases, he also called and reached answer machine in chinese.
>
> So thats why I assumed that the _global_ WebCase support has been moved to
> China/chinese. What I said was/is true for me as to my best knowledge of the
> time of my writing.


<snip>

That's quite a large leap, Antti, from 'Chinese name' to 'Must live in
China' - did you check the email time tags, that often gives a clue to
the time zones you are working between ?
China <-> EU is not the most natural choice ?

-jg





Antti Lukats 01-24-2006 11:37 AM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
"Jim Granville" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected]
> Antti Lukats wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> You right Peter,
>>
>> I am not fair. The life isnt either.
>>
>> But I am not making anything up. This is something I do not do. (Sure I
>> am wrong sometimes, that has happened).
>>
>> 1) All my latest WebCase's are handled from China or at least from people
>> with chinese names.
>> 2) someone else (I assume from US) reported the same for his 3 last
>> WebCases, he also called and reached answer machine in chinese.
>>
>> So thats why I assumed that the _global_ WebCase support has been moved
>> to China/chinese. What I said was/is true for me as to my best knowledge
>> of the time of my writing.

>
> <snip>
>
> That's quite a large leap, Antti, from 'Chinese name' to 'Must live in
> China' - did you check the email time tags, that often gives a clue to the
> time zones you are working between ?
> China <-> EU is not the most natural choice ?
>
> -jg
>


maybe I mis-judged. I havent checked the email header time tags. Some else
(also having Xilinx issues) was complaining about the answer machine on his
WebCase contact to respond in chinese, so I checked the names from emails
and found his assumptions about the WebCases now being handled by people
with chinese like names to be true.

Maybe I am too hard at (Xilinx WebCase support) as my issues are usually not
such that the WebCase assigned person has any chances to help. He always
needs to contact others and that makes it really long to get some meaningful
response. So I do not really have hopes that a WebCase helps if it is not
'accelerated' but then ah, it makes possible more sense to immediate
'accelerate' the issue, and that is something that Xilinx doesnt like of
course. But if immediate acceleration of an issue brings the solution even a
few hours faster then it is a few hours won.

I am pretty sure that there are people at Xilinx who are thinking very
seriously how to actually improve the software, support and services so lets
hope it will get better. There is lots of space for improvements, in all
areas.

--
Antti Lukats
http://www.xilant.com



Jim Granville 01-24-2006 09:28 PM

Re: Creating Multiple Configuration PROM File
 
Antti Lukats wrote:
> "Jim Granville" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:[email protected]
>
>>Antti Lukats wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>You right Peter,
>>>
>>>I am not fair. The life isnt either.
>>>
>>>But I am not making anything up. This is something I do not do. (Sure I
>>>am wrong sometimes, that has happened).
>>>
>>>1) All my latest WebCase's are handled from China or at least from people
>>>with chinese names.
>>>2) someone else (I assume from US) reported the same for his 3 last
>>>WebCases, he also called and reached answer machine in chinese.
>>>
>>>So thats why I assumed that the _global_ WebCase support has been moved
>>>to China/chinese. What I said was/is true for me as to my best knowledge
>>>of the time of my writing.

>>
>><snip>
>>
>> That's quite a large leap, Antti, from 'Chinese name' to 'Must live in
>>China' - did you check the email time tags, that often gives a clue to the
>>time zones you are working between ?
>> China <-> EU is not the most natural choice ?
>>
>>-jg
>>

>
>
> maybe I mis-judged. I havent checked the email header time tags. Some else
> (also having Xilinx issues) was complaining about the answer machine on his
> WebCase contact to respond in chinese, so I checked the names from emails
> and found his assumptions about the WebCases now being handled by people
> with chinese like names to be true.
>
> Maybe I am too hard at (Xilinx WebCase support) as my issues are usually not
> such that the WebCase assigned person has any chances to help. He always
> needs to contact others and that makes it really long to get some meaningful
> response.


...and I am sure your web cases send a shudder down any novice support
person.. :)


So I do not really have hopes that a WebCase helps if it is not
> 'accelerated' but then ah, it makes possible more sense to immediate
> 'accelerate' the issue, and that is something that Xilinx doesnt like of
> course. But if immediate acceleration of an issue brings the solution even a
> few hours faster then it is a few hours won.
>
> I am pretty sure that there are people at Xilinx who are thinking very
> seriously how to actually improve the software, support and services so lets
> hope it will get better. There is lots of space for improvements, in all
> areas.


I think your WEB Bug list is a good idea - Yes, we can understand
ISE 8.1i is new SW, and yes there will be issues, but the backward-steps
are the real 'eyebrow raisers'.

Seems they suffer the big-company disease, and become too marketing
dominated ( and worse, start to believe their own PR spin... )

- so nice public examples of user base problems are things the engineers
left within Xilinx can use as leverage to get more resources to do the
job properly, are a good thing.

-jg




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