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-   -   Book Software for XC3190A? (http://www.fpgacentral.com/group/showthread.php?t=58490)

tuxfriend 04-29-2006 10:52 PM

Book Software for XC3190A?
 
Hi,
is it possible to program the XC3190A with the tools in the book:
The Practical Xilinx Designer Lab Book: Version 1.5
Are there any restrictions?

Thank you!

Peter Alfke 04-30-2006 03:16 AM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
The XC3190A was introduced 15 years ago, which makes it hopelessly
obsolete. Even if you find the hardware sufficient (no on-chip RAM!),
the software is so antiquated that nobody should be forced to use it.
Get yourself a modern chip of Spartan or Virtex caliber and of 2003+
vintage. The hardware is cheap, and the software is free, and both are
very competent.
Happy designing with 21st century stuff!
Peter Alfke, Xilinx


tuxfriend 04-30-2006 08:51 AM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
Hello Peter,
thank you for the answer. But the XC3190A is big enougth for my small
projects and the package is good for hand soldering...
...and at last I have the parts but not the money;)
For any projects I use the XC9536 and webpack 8.1i (21st century stuff!).
The Book price is about 25eur and even if the Software is not comfortable I
think its good enougth for my home build stuff.
That is the reason for my question:
Can I use the Book Software for my XC3190A?

Thank you
tuxfriend

Peter Alfke wrote:

> The XC3190A was introduced 15 years ago, which makes it hopelessly
> obsolete. Even if you find the hardware sufficient (no on-chip RAM!),
> the software is so antiquated that nobody should be forced to use it.
> Get yourself a modern chip of Spartan or Virtex caliber and of 2003+
> vintage. The hardware is cheap, and the software is free, and both are
> very competent.
> Happy designing with 21st century stuff!
> Peter Alfke, Xilinx




Josh Rosen 04-30-2006 02:02 PM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 08:51:30 +0200, tuxfriend wrote:

> Hello Peter,
> thank you for the answer. But the XC3190A is big enougth for my small
> projects and the package is good for hand soldering... ..and at last I
> have the parts but not the money;) For any projects I use the XC9536 and
> webpack 8.1i (21st century stuff!). The Book price is about 25eur and
> even if the Software is not comfortable I think its good enougth for my
> home build stuff. That is the reason for my question: Can I use the Book
> Software for my XC3190A?
>
> Thank you
> tuxfriend
>
> Peter Alfke wrote:
>
>> The XC3190A was introduced 15 years ago, which makes it hopelessly
>> obsolete. Even if you find the hardware sufficient (no on-chip RAM!),
>> the software is so antiquated that nobody should be forced to use it.
>> Get yourself a modern chip of Spartan or Virtex caliber and of 2003+
>> vintage. The hardware is cheap, and the software is free, and both are
>> very competent.
>> Happy designing with 21st century stuff! Peter Alfke, Xilinx


Software support for the 3000 series was dropped years ago. What's the
copyright date on the book that you are looking at? If the copyright is
from the early to mid-90s then the included software will support the 3000
series. If the book has been updated in recent years the chances are they
have a slightly obsolete version of Webpack included which won't support
the 3000 series. If the book is from the early 90s, what media are the
included tools on? Early 90s PCs had 5 1/4" floppies, good luck finding a
5 1/4" floppy drive. If it's on 3 1/2" floppies then you'll be able to
read them because 3 1/2" drives are still available, your system might
even have on if it's more than 2 years old. If the software is on a CDROM
that's a sure indicator that it won't have 3000 series support. By the
time that CDROMs became the standard means of distributing software
support for the 3000 series had already been dropped.

If what you want to do is to learn how to design with FPGAs it's not
necessary to actually build something. My suggestion would be to download
a copy of Icarus Verilog (it's free) and a copy of the current Xilinx
Webpack (also free). Do design in Verilog and debug it using Icarus. Then
you can place and route it using Webpack. 21st century FPGA designers
don't spend much time in the lab debugging on the actual hardware, the
debugging is done using a Verilog simulator.


Phil Hays 04-30-2006 04:59 PM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
Josh Rosen wrote:

>If what you want to do is to learn how to design with FPGAs it's not
>necessary to actually build something. My suggestion would be to download
>a copy of Icarus Verilog (it's free) and a copy of the current Xilinx
>Webpack (also free). Do design in Verilog and debug it using Icarus. Then
>you can place and route it using Webpack. 21st century FPGA designers
>don't spend much time in the lab debugging on the actual hardware, the
>debugging is done using a Verilog simulator.


ModelSim XE starter is also a free simulator, and supports both VHDL
and Verilog. Both languages are widely used.


--
Phil Hays
(Who is leaving on a trip today to get a Xilinx badge, among other
things.)


tuxfriend 04-30-2006 05:24 PM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
> Software support for the 3000 series was dropped years ago. What's the
> copyright date on the book that you are looking at? If the copyright is
> from the early to mid-90s then the included software will support the 3000
> series. If the book has been updated in recent years the chances are they
> have a slightly obsolete version of Webpack included which won't support
> the 3000 series.

The Book is copyright 1999 and available at amazon.de:
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASI...087165-6861379
But for that ISBN there are 3 Versions of this book !?!?
http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/...sbn=0130216178

> If the book is from the early 90s, what media are the
> included tools on? Early 90s PCs had 5 1/4" floppies, good luck finding a
> 5 1/4" floppy drive.

That is no problem, I have some of these in my personal museum ;)

> If it's on 3 1/2" floppies then you'll be able to
> read them because 3 1/2" drives are still available, your system might
> even have on if it's more than 2 years old. If the software is on a CDROM
> that's a sure indicator that it won't have 3000 series support. By the
> time that CDROMs became the standard means of distributing software
> support for the 3000 series had already been dropped.

Oh, I think that will be the problem.
>


> If what you want to do is to learn how to design with FPGAs it's not
> necessary to actually build something. My suggestion would be to download
> a copy of Icarus Verilog (it's free) and a copy of the current Xilinx
> Webpack (also free). Do design in Verilog and debug it using Icarus. Then
> you can place and route it using Webpack. 21st century FPGA designers
> don't spend much time in the lab debugging on the actual hardware, the
> debugging is done using a Verilog simulator.

I would like to build something, and as I wrote before I did it with the
XC9536 now it should be a little bit more.

I think it would be the best I try to find it in a library before to buy.

Thank you for the usefull information
tuxfriend


Dave Pollum 05-01-2006 07:53 PM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
tuxfriend wrote:
> Hello Peter,
> thank you for the answer. But the XC3190A is big enougth for my small
> projects and the package is good for hand soldering...
> ..and at last I have the parts but not the money;)
> For any projects I use the XC9536 and webpack 8.1i (21st century stuff!).
> The Book price is about 25eur and even if the Software is not comfortable I
> think its good enougth for my home build stuff.
> That is the reason for my question:
> Can I use the Book Software for my XC3190A?
>
> Thank you
> tuxfriend
>
> Peter Alfke wrote:
>
> > The XC3190A was introduced 15 years ago, which makes it hopelessly
> > obsolete. Even if you find the hardware sufficient (no on-chip RAM!),
> > the software is so antiquated that nobody should be forced to use it.
> > Get yourself a modern chip of Spartan or Virtex caliber and of 2003+
> > vintage. The hardware is cheap, and the software is free, and both are
> > very competent.
> > Happy designing with 21st century stuff!
> > Peter Alfke, Xilinx


tuxfriend;
If you are concerned about soldering big chips with lots of tiny pins,
there are several things you can try:
1) Some companies (Digilent comes to mind) have CPLDs or even FPGAs
mounted on a board that plugs into a 40-pin 0.6" wide IC socket.
2) You can buy a CPLD or a FPGA development board. They usually have
switches, LEDs, etc plus 0.1" headers that you can use to connect to
your specific circuits. Xilinx's Spartan 3 board is around $100 (or is
it $150?)
3) Use a toaster over plus solder paste to solder SMD chips.
HTH
-Dave Pollum


tuxfriend 05-01-2006 09:07 PM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
Dave Pollum wrote:
> tuxfriend;
> If you are concerned about soldering big chips with lots of tiny pins,
> there are several things you can try:
> 1) Some companies (Digilent comes to mind) have CPLDs or even FPGAs
> mounted on a board that plugs into a 40-pin 0.6" wide IC socket.
> 2) You can buy a CPLD or a FPGA development board. They usually have
> switches, LEDs, etc plus 0.1" headers that you can use to connect to
> your specific circuits. Xilinx's Spartan 3 board is around $100 (or is
> it $150?)
> 3) Use a toaster over plus solder paste to solder SMD chips.
> HTH
> -Dave Pollum


Hello Dave,
2) is a good choise ($149)
3) 0,8mm is big enough for hand soldering
....but the main problem still exist.
I can't belive that there is no more software for my XC3190A in the whole
world.

Thank you for your answer!

tuxfriend 05-01-2006 09:36 PM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
> Do you have a DOS 3.3 machine to run it on?
No problem!

> A DOS 3.3 SDK?

What is a DOS SDK? Do you mean Win3.1 SDK? I have a MS C 1.0 for Win
license.

> I forget if the XC3190A tools were Windows friendly but they *were* all
> command-line friendly but still not at all a pretty interface. I'm not
> sure you'd be happy with the tool performance if you could get those 1990
> era tools running unless you used the NeoCad tools to up the performance
> of the
> Xilinx software before they bought out NeoCad. You can't get NeoCad keys
> anymore as far as I know.

The problem is the Place&Route Tool and the bitstream generation.
There is no need for a graphical interface.
Do you know the book software or have an idea where I can get the P&R Soft?


John_H 05-01-2006 09:46 PM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
"tuxfriend" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Hello Dave,
> 2) is a good choise ($149)
> 3) 0,8mm is big enough for hand soldering
> ...but the main problem still exist.
> I can't belive that there is no more software for my XC3190A in the whole
> world.
>
> Thank you for your answer!


Do you have a DOS 3.3 machine to run it on? A DOS 3.3 SDK?

I forget if the XC3190A tools were Windows friendly but they *were* all
command-line friendly but still not at all a pretty interface. I'm not sure
you'd be happy with the tool performance if you could get those 1990 era
tools running unless you used the NeoCad tools to up the performance of the
Xilinx software before they bought out NeoCad. You can't get NeoCad keys
anymore as far as I know.



Duane Clark 05-01-2006 10:37 PM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
tuxfriend wrote:
> Josh Rosen wrote:
> ...
>> If it's on 3 1/2" floppies then you'll be able to
>> read them because 3 1/2" drives are still available, your system might
>> even have on if it's more than 2 years old. If the software is on a CDROM
>> that's a sure indicator that it won't have 3000 series support. By the
>> time that CDROMs became the standard means of distributing software
>> support for the 3000 series had already been dropped.

>
> Oh, I think that will be the problem.


I have a moderately old copy of Foundation 2.1 around on CD. It is from
circa 2000, and claims to support the XC3100A family of devices. I think
Xilinx has the old versions of their software available on their website
somewhere. But I would agree with others who are trying to talk you out
of bothering with these old devices.

tuxfriend 05-01-2006 10:47 PM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
> I have a moderately old copy of Foundation 2.1 around on CD. It is from
> circa 2000, and claims to support the XC3100A family of devices. I think
> Xilinx has the old versions of their software available on their website
> somewhere. But I would agree with others who are trying to talk you out
> of bothering with these old devices.


There are many old links to the Xilinx website to the old software.
But the oldest version that is available is the webpack 3.3 and there is no
more support for XC3000. For a new bigger design there is no question to
use the new devices. But sometimes when I have a little project, the
XC3190A is the right size - and I have over 100 of this...
I would be very interested of a copy of your old copy ;)


tuxfriend 05-02-2006 09:48 PM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
Hello Duane
Got it!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank
you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank
you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!


Ray Andraka 05-03-2006 05:18 AM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
Josh Rosen wrote:


> Software support for the 3000 series was dropped years ago. What's the
> copyright date on the book that you are looking at? If the copyright is
> from the early to mid-90s then the included software will support the 3000
> series. If the book has been updated in recent years the chances are they
> have a slightly obsolete version of Webpack included which won't support
> the 3000 series. If the book is from the early 90s, what media are the
> included tools on? Early 90s PCs had 5 1/4" floppies, good luck finding a
> 5 1/4" floppy drive. If it's on 3 1/2" floppies then you'll be able to
> read them because 3 1/2" drives are still available, your system might
> even have on if it's more than 2 years old. If the software is on a CDROM
> that's a sure indicator that it won't have 3000 series support. By the
> time that CDROMs became the standard means of distributing software
> support for the 3000 series had already been dropped.
>



You'll need the hardware dongle to run the software too, along with
either DOS or win3.1, depending on which version of the software you
have. On top of that, the dongles and software don't run on today's
faster machines. You'll probably have to resurrect an old system
slower/older than a pentium 166 to get it to work. I am pretty sure the
last two versions of Xact that supported the 3100 series did come on
CDs, but you still needed the parallel port dongle to activate the
software. Good luck finding one of those.

For quite a while, the 3100 series was compelling even though it was
obsolete for very low power designs because of its low static
dissipation. That is no longer true. I can't think of any good reason
to use a 3100 series part now. Even free, they are too expensive to use
and rather primitive compared with what you can get today for just a few
dollars.

Robin Bruce 05-04-2006 11:06 AM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 


> You'll probably have to resurrect an old system
> slower/older than a pentium 166 to get it to work.


Couldn't he use a dos emulator like DOSBox or something like that?
That's what I do when I want to play some archaic PC game from back in
the day...

Robin


Ray Andraka 05-05-2006 03:07 AM

Re: Book Software for XC3190A?
 
Robin Bruce wrote:

>
>>You'll probably have to resurrect an old system
>>slower/older than a pentium 166 to get it to work.

>
>
> Couldn't he use a dos emulator like DOSBox or something like that?
> That's what I do when I want to play some archaic PC game from back in
> the day...
>
> Robin
>

Depends on how it interacts with the parallel port. The issue with
the faster computers with the old software is that the parallel port
communication gets too fast for the dongle.


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