FPGA Central

Hi Aleks,
You may take a look also at ChipQuake from http://www.noisecoupling.com.* It does not have extraction capabilities, but it covers the pre-layout decoupling capacitors
selection and placement on the PCB, package, and chip, and it also
computes the power distribution impedance curve and resonance peaks.*
There is a downloadable user guide on that web site that may give you
more insight into this tool.

Best Regards,
Cosmin
NoiseCoupling.com


--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Istvan Nagy <buenos (AT) freemail (DOT) hu> wrote:
From: Istvan Nagy <buenos (AT) freemail (DOT) hu>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What are power integrity tools available out there? Anything inexpensive that works?
To: "Aleksandr Oysgelt" <aleks (AT) aristanetworks (DOT) com>, si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 2:50 AM

hi

some free tools available:
- FEMM. to do post-layout AC or DC voltage drop and current distribution
analysis on power planes (opensource, fully free, with windows version):
http://femm.foster-miller.net/wiki/HomePage
- Sphynx. frequency domain (s-parameter) analisys of power planes, with
capacitors. creating macromodel, checking resonant peaks.
you can download a demo with max 20000 nodes limitation and no CAD import,
or buy the full version.
http://www.powerintegrity.net/sphinx
- QUCS: circuit simulator with s-parameter file import for AC analysis. I
use this with models exported from sphynx, for a full power distribution
system freq.domain AC analysys (macromodelling). (opensource, fully free,
with windows version)
http://qucs.sourceforge.net/
example system anaysis:
http://www.buenos.extra.hu/download/...Design_prj.rar

To do a complete system analisys with siwave, you need to buy the Nexxim
circuit simulator too, also from Ansoft. dcdc converter, powerplane,
package, chip, package-caps... simulation together

"Have non-SI expert be able to run the tools" -i am not shure if this
makes
any sense.

regards,
Istvan Nagy
Concurrent Technologies, UK.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Aleksandr Oysgelt" <aleks (AT) aristanetworks (DOT) com>
To: <si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org>
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:45 PM
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What are power integrity tools available out there?
Anything inexpensive that works?


>I am starting to look at power integrity tools and would like to know what
> is available and whether there are any "slimmed down" versions
that can do
> what I need at lower price than full-blown Sigrity-like packages.
> Currently we use "spreadsheet" approach where we analytically
compute
> plane
> impedance based on self+mounting impedances of various types of caps plus
> plane impedance. This is fairly accurate to 100MHz or so. However, it
> does
> not help us at all in figuring out where the plane resonances are and
> where
> we should place caps to help with them.
>
> So, here is my wishlist. I don't require all to be addressed by same
> tool.
> Depending on price - I'd be happy to get just some of the bullet
points
> and
> not all.
>
> - Figure out plane impedance curve
> - Figure out plane resonance - where should we place caps
> - Figure out resistive losses plus current distribution
> - Be able to figure out tradeoffs between using higher capacitance
> plane/ground structure vs using large number of caps vs using different
> types of caps.
> - Do pre and post layout simulation
> - Have non-SI expert be able to run the tools
>
> So far Sigrity and HyperLynx PI (just announced) seem to do the job but at
> quite substantial cost. I keep asking myself a question - what problem do
> they solve vs cost (in license fees and training/simulation time) vs using
> spreadsheet/simple simulation. So far I don't have a clear answer -
thus
> I
> am asking you for other ideas on approaching the power integrity problem.
>
> Thank you
> Aleks
>
>
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hi
can we get the software too, or just the manual?
i saw that it is for the book.
i dont really want to buy your book, since i am not doing chip design (i think the book is about that), but i do board-level design.
i would be interested in trying it.

Istvan Nagy
cct.

----- Original Message -----
From: Cosmin Iorga
To: Aleksandr Oysgelt ; si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org ; Istvan Nagy
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: What are power integrity tools available out there? Anything inexpensive that works?


Hi Aleks,

You may take a look also at ChipQuake from http://www.noisecoupling.com. It does not have extraction capabilities, but it covers the pre-layout decoupling capacitors selection and placement on the PCB, package, and chip, and it also computes the power distribution impedance curve and resonance peaks. There is a downloadable user guide on that web site that may give you more insight into this tool.

Best Regards,
Cosmin
NoiseCoupling.com


--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Istvan Nagy <buenos (AT) freemail (DOT) hu> wrote:

From: Istvan Nagy <buenos (AT) freemail (DOT) hu>
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What are power integrity tools available out there? Anything inexpensive that works?
To: "Aleksandr Oysgelt" <aleks (AT) aristanetworks (DOT) com>, si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 2:50 AM


hisome free tools available:- FEMM. to do post-layout AC or DC voltage drop and current distribution analysis on power planes (opensource, fully free, with windows version): http://femm.foster-miller.net/wiki/HomePage- Sphynx. frequency domain (s-parameter) analisys of
power planes, with capacitors. creating macromodel, checking resonant peaks.you can download a demo with max 20000 nodes limitation and no CAD import, or buy the full version.http://www.powerintegrity.net/sphinx- QUCS: circuit simulator with s-parameter file import for AC analysis. I use this with models exported from sphynx, for a full power distribution system freq.domain AC analysys (macromodelling). (opensource, fully free, with windows version)http://qucs.sourceforge.net/example system anaysis: http://www.buenos.extra.hu/download/...sign_prj.rarTo do a complete system analisys with siwave, you need to buy the Nexxim circuit simulator too, also from Ansoft. dcdc converter, powerplane, package, chip, package-caps... simulation together"Have non-SI expert be able to run the tools" -i am not shure if thismakes any sense.regards,Istvan NagyConcurrent
Technologies, UK.----- Original Message ----- From: "Aleksandr Oysgelt" <aleks (AT) aristanetworks (DOT) com>To: <si-list (AT) freelists (DOT) org>Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:45 PMSubject: [SI-LIST] Re: What are power integrity tools available out there? Anything inexpensive that works?>I am starting to look at power integrity tools and would like to know what> is available and whether there are any "slimmed down" versionsthat can do> what I need at lower price than full-blown Sigrity-like packages.> Currently we use "spreadsheet" approach where we analyticallycompute > plane> impedance based on self+mounting impedances of various types of caps plus> plane impedance. This is fairly accurate to 100MHz or so. However, it > does> not help us at all in figuring out where the plane resonances are and > where> we should place caps to
help with them.>> So, here is my wishlist. I don't require all to be addressed by same > tool.> Depending on price - I'd be happy to get just some of the bulletpoints > and> not all.>> - Figure out plane impedance curve> - Figure out plane resonance - where should we place caps> - Figure out resistive losses plus current distribution> - Be able to figure out tradeoffs between using higher capacitance> plane/ground structure vs using large number of caps vs using different> types of caps.> - Do pre and post layout simulation> - Have non-SI expert be able to run the tools>> So far Sigrity and HyperLynx PI (just announced) seem to do the job but at> quite substantial cost. I keep asking myself a question - what problem do> they solve vs cost (in license fees and training/simulation time) vs using>
spreadsheet/simple simulation. So far I don't have a clear answer -thus > I> am asking you for other ideas on approaching the power integrity problem.>> Thank you> Aleks>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------> To unsubscribe from si-list:> si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subjectfield>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:> http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list>> For help:> si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject field>>> List technical documents are available at:> http://www.si-list.net>> List archives are viewable at:> http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-list> or at our remote archives:> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages> Old (prior to June 6,
2001) list archives are viewable at:> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------To unsubscribe from si-list:si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject fieldor to administer your membership from a web page, go to:http://www.freelists.org/webpage/si-listFor help:si-list-request (AT) freelists (DOT) org with 'help' in the Subject fieldList technical documents are available at: http://www.si-list.netList archives are viewable at: http://www.freelists.org/archives/si-listor at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messagesOld (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu


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