FPGA Central

There seems to be some confusion about Spartan3 availability. According
to a Xilinx press release in October, several Spartan3 chips should be
in production. However, Insight Memec, the UK distributor, has just told
me that they haven't any in stock and don't even know when they will be
getting some! They were able to give me some prices, though.

Does anyone know what is going on?

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: [email protected]
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM develpment system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

Hi Leon,
Same situation here in Germany.
I ordered Spartan-3 FPGAs in September. My distributor cannot tell me when
I'll get them.
It seems that Xilinx serves the "big players" first and does not care about
small customers at all !
An "unofficial" statement from a Xilinx employee was "Spartan-3 is for
high-volume customers only"
I believe they have yield problems.

Maybe someone from Xilinx can comment this.

-Manfred Kraus


"Leon Heller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3fe1fea1$0$25666$[email protected] ...
> There seems to be some confusion about Spartan3 availability. According
> to a Xilinx press release in October, several Spartan3 chips should be
> in production. However, Insight Memec, the UK distributor, has just told
> me that they haven't any in stock and don't even know when they will be
> getting some! They were able to give me some prices, though.
>
> Does anyone know what is going on?
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller, G1HSM
> Email: [email protected]
> My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM develpment system:
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html
>

"Manfred Kraus" <[email protected]> writes:
> Same situation here in Germany. I ordered Spartan-3 FPGAs in
> September. My distributor cannot tell me when I'll get them. It seems
> that Xilinx serves the "big players" first and does not care about
> small customers at all ! An "unofficial" statement from a Xilinx
> employee was "Spartan-3 is for high-volume customers only"

That shouldn't be a surprise, since it's the same thing that happened
with the Spartan 2. It was nearly a year between availability to
high-volume customers, and availability to everyone else.

> Maybe someone from Xilinx can comment this.

Seems unlikely that you'll get any official comment. They allocate the
limited production where it will do them the most good. I would do the
same in their position.

If you're not going to buy in high volumes, you shouldn't try to use the
latest bleeding-edge chips. That's true of chips of any sort, not just
FPGAs.

Hate to say it, but this is why I use Altera. I can get Cyclones -- today.
And their free tools support the entire family.

Hard to beat that.


"Leon Heller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3fe1fea1$0$25666$[email protected] ...
> There seems to be some confusion about Spartan3 availability. According
> to a Xilinx press release in October, several Spartan3 chips should be
> in production. However, Insight Memec, the UK distributor, has just told
> me that they haven't any in stock and don't even know when they will be
> getting some! They were able to give me some prices, though.
>
> Does anyone know what is going on?
>
> Leon
> --
> Leon Heller, G1HSM
> Email: [email protected]
> My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM develpment system:
> http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html
>

Eric Smith wrote:

> "Manfred Kraus" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>Same situation here in Germany. I ordered Spartan-3 FPGAs in
>>September. My distributor cannot tell me when I'll get them. It seems
>>that Xilinx serves the "big players" first and does not care about
>>small customers at all ! An "unofficial" statement from a Xilinx
>>employee was "Spartan-3 is for high-volume customers only"
>
>
> That shouldn't be a surprise, since it's the same thing that happened
> with the Spartan 2. It was nearly a year between availability to
> high-volume customers, and availability to everyone else.
>
>
>>Maybe someone from Xilinx can comment this.
>
>
> Seems unlikely that you'll get any official comment. They allocate the
> limited production where it will do them the most good. I would do the
> same in their position.
>
> If you're not going to buy in high volumes, you shouldn't try to use the
> latest bleeding-edge chips. That's true of chips of any sort, not just
> FPGAs.

To be fair to Xilinx, I missed this:

"Pricing and Availability
The XC3S50, XC3S200, and XC3S400 Spartan-3 devices with 50,000, 200,000,
and 400,000 system gates respectively are available for less than
$6.50*. The XC3S1000 Spartan-3 device with 1 million system gates is
also available for under $12.00*. The entire Spartan-3 family will be
available in volume production in early 2004 from distributors
worldwide, or direct from Xilinx at www.xilinx.com/spartan/."

It does imply that some devices are available now, however. Perhaps they
are simply not available from distributors until early next year.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: [email protected]
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM develpment system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

Eric Smith <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Manfred Kraus" <[email protected]> writes:
> > Same situation here in Germany. I ordered Spartan-3 FPGAs in
> > September. My distributor cannot tell me when I'll get them. It seems
> > that Xilinx serves the "big players" first and does not care about
> > small customers at all ! this.
>
> Seems unlikely that you'll get any official comment. They allocate the
> limited production where it will do them the most good. I would do the
> same in their position.

That's not entirely true. At least very small quantities (single
trays) gain a lot of design wins without hurting the volume shipments
to the big players.
The real problem are the arrogant big distributors in europe (and
xilinx as it does not understand that these distributors are a
problem)

I once had a case where Insight plainly lied to me about the
availability of samples in munich. Munich told me, that they had none,
but the Insight devisions in the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark and UK
just told me "Please order in Munich, they have stock".

A Xilinx representative in the UK was very helpful in convincing
Insight to send me the chips, but it took him a lot of emails and
phone calls.

I said before that Xilinx really needs a small distributor in Europe
beside the big guys Insight and Avnet.

Peter Alfke said that there is hope....

Kolja Sulimma

Patrick MacGregor <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
> Hate to say it, but this is why I use Altera. I can get Cyclones --
today.
> And their free tools support the entire family.


Aye, but to be fair, how long has Cyclone been out now?


Nial (with no real preference between A or X).

------------------------------------------------
Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk

Leon Heller <[email protected]> wrote:


: To be fair to Xilinx, I missed this:

: "Pricing and Availability
: The XC3S50, XC3S200, and XC3S400 Spartan-3 devices with 50,000, 200,000,
: and 400,000 system gates respectively are available for less than
: $6.50*. The XC3S1000 Spartan-3 device with 1 million system gates is
: also available for under $12.00*. The entire Spartan-3 family will be
: available in volume production in early 2004 from distributors
: worldwide, or direct from Xilinx at www.xilinx.com/spartan/."

: It does imply that some devices are available now, however. Perhaps they
: are simply not available from distributors until early next year.

That's probably marketing, that put out the note above.

The most recent datasheet
(http://direct.xilinx.com/bvdocs/publ...ns/ds099-1.pdf) dated April
2003 on page 4 Product Ordering and availability still lists all devices in
parenthesis, with
> 3. Parentheses indicate that a given product is not yet released to
> production. Contact sales for availability information.

I guess if some parts would already be in general availability the technical
people would feel worth the update to that datasheet.

Bye
--
Uwe Bonnes [email protected]

Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------

>Aye, but to be fair, how long has Cyclone been out now?

But you were able to buy small quantities early... not after
a year - IMHO.


--
Jerry

Leon Heller wrote:
>
> Eric Smith wrote:
>
> > "Manfred Kraus" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >>Same situation here in Germany. I ordered Spartan-3 FPGAs in
> >>September. My distributor cannot tell me when I'll get them. It seems
> >>that Xilinx serves the "big players" first and does not care about
> >>small customers at all ! An "unofficial" statement from a Xilinx
> >>employee was "Spartan-3 is for high-volume customers only"
> >
> >
> > That shouldn't be a surprise, since it's the same thing that happened
> > with the Spartan 2. It was nearly a year between availability to
> > high-volume customers, and availability to everyone else.
> >
> >
> >>Maybe someone from Xilinx can comment this.
> >
> >
> > Seems unlikely that you'll get any official comment. They allocate the
> > limited production where it will do them the most good. I would do the
> > same in their position.
> >
> > If you're not going to buy in high volumes, you shouldn't try to use the
> > latest bleeding-edge chips. That's true of chips of any sort, not just
> > FPGAs.
>
> To be fair to Xilinx, I missed this:
>
> "Pricing and Availability
> The XC3S50, XC3S200, and XC3S400 Spartan-3 devices with 50,000, 200,000,
> and 400,000 system gates respectively are available for less than
> $6.50*. The XC3S1000 Spartan-3 device with 1 million system gates is
> also available for under $12.00*. The entire Spartan-3 family will be
> available in volume production in early 2004 from distributors
> worldwide, or direct from Xilinx at www.xilinx.com/spartan/."
>
> It does imply that some devices are available now, however. Perhaps they
> are simply not available from distributors until early next year.

It is not so much a matter of them not being available, it is more a
question of how you are trying to get them. You need to talk to your
distributor and get them to line up a few chips for you. I have not
gotten mine yet, but I have been assured that they will be coming in the
next month.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

jerry1111 wrote:
>
> >Aye, but to be fair, how long has Cyclone been out now?
>
> But you were able to buy small quantities early... not after
> a year - IMHO.

I think it is more interesting that this thread has been discussed for a
full day now and no one from Xilinx has commented. Especially when one
poster mentioned rumors of yield issues. I would expect Xilinx to be
jumping all over that if it were just a rumor.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

rickman <[email protected]> writes:
> I think it is more interesting that this thread has been discussed for a
> full day now and no one from Xilinx has commented. Especially when one
> poster mentioned rumors of yield issues. I would expect Xilinx to be
> jumping all over that if it were just a rumor.

Of course not! Yields are one of the most carefully guarded trade secrets
of semiconductor companies. The fact that a semi company doesn't talk
about yields, even to dispell a rumor, does not lend any credibility to
the rumor.

rickman wrote:
> jerry1111 wrote:
>
>>>Aye, but to be fair, how long has Cyclone been out now?
>>
>>But you were able to buy small quantities early... not after
>>a year - IMHO.
>
>
> I think it is more interesting that this thread has been discussed for a
> full day now and no one from Xilinx has commented. Especially when one
> poster mentioned rumors of yield issues. I would expect Xilinx to be
> jumping all over that if it were just a rumor.
>


I have had an email from someone at Xilinx; they will be available from
distributors in the new year.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
Email: [email protected]
My low-cost Philips LPC210x ARM development system:
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller/lpc2104.html

This thread pretends that availability and yield are just a yes/no issue.
Let me assure you that it is not.
Our industry is very aggressive (and very successful) in pushing
barely-proven technology into volume production. Naturally, the yield at
first is not as good as it will be after a while. If it were, we would be
accused of not being aggressive enough.
I am not aware of any Spartan3-specific problems, but it does not surprise
me that availability is not perfect yet. The important thing is that the
design works, which it does! Yield has traditionally ALWAYS been improved
with a bit of hard work.
(I could cite hundreds of examples from my almost four decades in this
industry...)

Now you have my personal and honest opinion, don't read anything complicated
or devious into it.
Peter Alfke



rickman wrote:

> jerry1111 wrote:
> >
> > >Aye, but to be fair, how long has Cyclone been out now?
> >
> > But you were able to buy small quantities early... not after
> > a year - IMHO.
>
> I think it is more interesting that this thread has been discussed for a
> full day now and no one from Xilinx has commented. Especially when one
> poster mentioned rumors of yield issues. I would expect Xilinx to be
> jumping all over that if it were just a rumor.
>
> --
>
> Rick "rickman" Collins
>
> [email protected]
> Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
> removed.
>
> Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
> Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
> 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
> Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

Leon Heller wrote:
> I have had an email from someone at Xilinx; they will
> be available from distributors in the new year.

More completely: "Open for order entry end December 03.
Orders will then go on allocation."

And that is for pretty big volumes ;-) I guess the PR
people don't like to confuse a good story with
inconvenient information.

>
> I have had an email from someone at Xilinx; they will be available from
> distributors in the new year.
>

Same to me: Insight Italy says some samples of XC3S200-4TQ144 could be
available early next year.

Not sure what you mean -- asking "how long have them been out" makes my
point. They're out. You can get them. Now. None of this monkey business
about "maybe sometime next year in the first or second quarter. Maybe."

My schedules can't revolve around when Xilinx may or may not decide to grant
me the privelege of being able to actually acquire some of their parts.


"Nial Stewart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3fe2ee7d$0$30928$[email protected]. .
>
> Patrick MacGregor <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]..
> > Hate to say it, but this is why I use Altera. I can get Cyclones --
> today.
> > And their free tools support the entire family.
>
>
> Aye, but to be fair, how long has Cyclone been out now?
>
>
> Nial (with no real preference between A or X).
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
> FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
> www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk
>
>

Key words here are "some" and "could".

Having used FPGAs since they were first introduced, I can safely say that in
nearly every case, X or A parts will do the job. Only in very rare
instances does one product have a clear, definitive advantage over the
other.

So when choosing to use one vendor over the other, it usually boils down to
personal preference.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone on this thread would
prefer to be treated the way X is treating them. Do all your projects and
products have such open-ended schedules that you can deal with the moving
target of availability that X keeps forcing you to accept?

If you choose to use parts from X, you shouldn't complain about the way they
treat you -- this is hardly the first time they've behaved this way. Caused
me to switch allegiance to A and never look back or regret it, and more
importantly to never miss a production schedule due to them not having parts
many, many months after they advertised that they would be available.

"Antonio Pasini" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:OZKEb.16659$[email protected]..
> >
> > I have had an email from someone at Xilinx; they will be available from
> > distributors in the new year.
> >
>
> Same to me: Insight Italy says some samples of XC3S200-4TQ144 could be
> available early next year.
>
>
>

Patrick MacGregor wrote:
> For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone on this thread
> would prefer to be treated the way X is treating them. Do all your
> projects and products have such open-ended schedules that you can
> deal with the moving target of availability that X keeps forcing you
> to accept?

Good point, but the Spartan3 is a pretty terrific part for
many applications. It's like dating the girl with naturally
curly hair - more trouble, but worth it.

> For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone on this thread would
> prefer to be treated the way X is treating them. Do all your projects and
> products have such open-ended schedules that you can deal with the moving
> target of availability that X keeps forcing you to accept?

To me, X has always delivered. Very good technical support. Good presence
here on newsgroup.
Good price. Insight Italy never missed a delivery, after a careful planning
of orders.
That's matters to me.

Never tried A, though.

Tight schedule ? I'd use Spartan II, as I'm doing now (2003 project, and
future update in 2004).
I'm very happy with them.

What I'm now thinking about is what I'll put on production on 2005.
So I feel confident I can consider Spartan 3, also.

Announcing parts early actually helps: I can start designing my system NOW.
In any case, I wouldn't even try to load the design on actual HW as long as
I'm not completely satisfied on simulation results.

But I acknowledge I'm perhaps a lucky guy: I have the luxury to plan in
advance for upgrades or new designs.

> Not sure what you mean -- asking "how long have them been out" makes my
> point. They're out.

I was making the point that you can hardly compare the
availablility of a mature product that's in full
production with one that's just being released, which
is what this thread's discussion has been about.

Why aren't you using 10KXXXs? They were available
years ago.

> You can get them. Now.

You can get SpartanIIs. Now.

A better comparison will be to wait and see how Altera
handles the relase of CycloneII next year.

Nial.

------------------------------------------------
Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk

>I think it is more interesting that this thread has been discussed for a
>full day now and no one from Xilinx has commented. Especially when one
>poster mentioned rumors of yield issues. I would expect Xilinx to be
>jumping all over that if it were just a rumor.

Seems like they have read your message.
Anyway, in my eyes they should respond without this little
help from you :-)

And about availability: someone could get SW model of chip and work
with it for a year (till final version of code). Someone needs to put
this chip into excessive real-time testing - because there is NO
CHANCE to simulate my _whole_ design (where the fpga is the only one
component of system) - and this is the reason why I'm in need of
_real_ parts. Of course, these 'early' parts can be engineering
samples, not from full production (if I got the differences between
them).
I'm not using zilions of parts?
When I start to use such quantities, I'd go to asic world :-)



--
Jerry

Let me set the record straight on the Cyclone front. Altera delivered
over 50,000 units of each device into customer and distribution partners
within the first 1-3 months of each device shipping. Devices
transitioned from ES to production in less than two months for each
device. Every single device shipped to customers ahead of the schedule
we that committed to customers via our announcements, our sales team and
www site. We are currently approaching the 1 millionth unit shipped in
the family. This in only 12 months from first silicon shipment. For the
record, that shipment is < 3 months ahead of first Spartan 3 shipment
(at least from public claims)

The bottom line is that all five devices in the family are in volume
production, available off the shelf to anyone who wants them.
Additionally, we have multiple customers taking thousands of units per
month. If you need low-cost FPGAs in any volume and regardless of the
size of your company, Cyclone is ready to go when you are.




Tim Colleran
Altera Corporation

Apparently you didn't know that Cyclone and Spartan 3 are contemporaries?
Both are new products just being released, and squarely aimed at low-cost
markets. Both were introduced to the public about the same time, to much
fanfare and to ambitious pricing and availability schedules.

The key difference is that Altera met or beat their advertised schedules,
whereas Xilinx has consistently missed their targets, and their schedules
continue to slip. You can buy a promise, or you can buy a part.

Again, you make my point by calling Cyclone a "mature product that's in full
production". Not bad for a product that is just being released. They've
done a pretty good job if you think of new Cyclone parts as "mature"
already. Altera is building a good track record regarding what they say and
what they actually deliver. Not perfect, as shown by their recent
backpeddling on some Stratix termination features, but still very, very
respectable.

Lastly, I expect I'll be able to get Cyclone 2 in production quantites long
before you ever see any Spartan 4's (or whatever they call the succesor to
S3), which is what they'll be competing against. Hopefully Cyclone 2 will
roll out as smoothly as Cyclone 1's did. The odds favor it.


"Nial Stewart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3fe4737c$0$11219$[email protected]. .
> > Not sure what you mean -- asking "how long have them been out" makes my
> > point. They're out.
>
> I was making the point that you can hardly compare the
> availablility of a mature product that's in full
> production with one that's just being released, which
> is what this thread's discussion has been about.
>
> Why aren't you using 10KXXXs? They were available
> years ago.
>
> > You can get them. Now.
>
> You can get SpartanIIs. Now.
>
> A better comparison will be to wait and see how Altera
> handles the relase of CycloneII next year.
>
> Nial.
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> Nial Stewart Developments Ltd
> FPGA and High Speed Digital Design
> www.nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk
>
>

Patrick MacGregor <[email protected]> wrote:
: Apparently you didn't know that Cyclone and Spartan 3 are contemporaries?
: Both are new products just being released, and squarely aimed at low-cost
: markets. Both were introduced to the public about the same time, to much
: fanfare and to ambitious pricing and availability schedules.

Cyclone was announced Sep 2002, Spartan April 2003. When where Cyclone
available from distributors?

Bye
--
Uwe Bonnes [email protected]

Institut fuer Kernphysik Schlossgartenstrasse 9 64289 Darmstadt
--------- Tel. 06151 162516 -------- Fax. 06151 164321 ----------