FPGA Central

I'm writing a feature article for FPGA Journal (www.fpgajournal.com)
about FPGAs and the re-birth of the electronics hobbyist. My theory is
that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age" period, maybe
from the early/mid 1970s until recently becuase of the inaccessibility
and cost of designing with state-of-the-art technology. Radio Shack
shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits and hobbyist parts to
selling toys, cell-phones, and stereo equipment.

Now, with the emergence of low-cost, high-capability FPGAs, development
boards, and design software, I see a new age of hobbyist activity
beginning (as often evidenced in this group).

I'm looking for a few people that would be willing to express views on
this topic for the article.

I know, Austin will probably post a strong technical argument that
Xilinx FPGAs are uniquely attractive to the hobbyist, somebody from
Altera will send me a Cubic Cyclonium prototyping paperweight (they're
very cool), and Actel and Lattice people will post just to remind us
that they have low-cost kits too, but I'm primarily interested in some
info from real, live, "working" hobbyists.

Any takers?

The low cost starter kits are great - not restricted to FPGAs.
Both Microchip/PIC and Atmel/AVR have starter kits under $100,
available from Digikey.

Anybody got a list of hobbyist friendly vendors? I'm thinking
of places like Digilent.



The problem with FPGAs and CPLDs that I see is getting the raw
parts in small quantities at hobbyist friendly stores.

Most distributors are interested in large volumes. They aren't
really setup for hobbyists.

The Xilinx store still doesn't carry the small Coolrunner IIs.
Digikey doesn't stock any of them.

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"Kevin Morris" <[email protected]> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:[email protected] oups.com...
> I'm writing a feature article for FPGA Journal (www.fpgajournal.com)
> about FPGAs and the re-birth of the electronics hobbyist. My theory is
> that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age" period, maybe
> from the early/mid 1970s until recently becuase of the inaccessibility
> and cost of designing with state-of-the-art technology. Radio Shack
> shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits and hobbyist parts to
> selling toys, cell-phones, and stereo equipment.
>
> Now, with the emergence of low-cost, high-capability FPGAs, development
> boards, and design software, I see a new age of hobbyist activity
> beginning (as often evidenced in this group).
>
> I'm looking for a few people that would be willing to express views on
> this topic for the article.
>
> I know, Austin will probably post a strong technical argument that
> Xilinx FPGAs are uniquely attractive to the hobbyist, somebody from
> Altera will send me a Cubic Cyclonium prototyping paperweight (they're
> very cool), and Actel and Lattice people will post just to remind us
> that they have low-cost kits too, but I'm primarily interested in some
> info from real, live, "working" hobbyists.
>
> Any takers?
>
I am actually not so hobbyist, but I have my fun some times


Spartan3E VQ100 on single sided toner transfer made PCB
http://xilant.com/content/view/35/2/

DIL24 (GAL like) Spartan3-100 based module works as
MMC card in card reader

http://xilant.com/content/view/33/55/

my FPGA protoboard pictures are lost unfortunatly

xilinx isnt actually the best for hobby because of the 3 power supplies
required
sometimes you can get it with 2 power supplies (if VCCIO is 2.5)

so all other vendors have an small advantage here, with the true single
supply
chips being the best, in generic it really looks like it may come to
DIY electronic rebirth again - if I can help here I would be glad -

there are so many thing any FPGA board can do because of
its reprogrammability

for true do it all yourself hobby bastler Lattice XP in TQ144
is possible the easiest to handle

so what info are you looking and what is it where you look
for takers ?

Actel has no low kits (no real low cost). for xilinx/lattice
kit prices start from 50USD 50EUR, for Altera has been same
all actel kits are 149USD+

the only interesting Actel thing is the Fusion starterkit and
that costs already 399EUR



--
Antti Lukats
http://www.xilant.com

Kevin Morris wrote:
> I'm writing a feature article for FPGA Journal (www.fpgajournal.com)
> about FPGAs and the re-birth of the electronics hobbyist. My theory is
> that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age" period, maybe
> from the early/mid 1970s until recently becuase of the inaccessibility
> and cost of designing with state-of-the-art technology. Radio Shack
> shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits and hobbyist parts to
> selling toys, cell-phones, and stereo equipment.
>
> Now, with the emergence of low-cost, high-capability FPGAs, development
> boards, and design software, I see a new age of hobbyist activity
> beginning (as often evidenced in this group).

There is also a parallel in the Microcontroller sector.
With most new devices having FLASH and OnChip debug, the level
of entry for capable in-system debug, has dropped.

SiLabs have a sub $10 USB ToolStick, Zilog had some sub $10
demos, and I think now have $39 Eval/Demo Boards.
Freescale have a new $50 promo USB system...

>
> I'm looking for a few people that would be willing to express views on
> this topic for the article.

> I know, Austin will probably post a strong technical argument that
> Xilinx FPGAs are uniquely attractive to the hobbyist, somebody from
> Altera will send me a Cubic Cyclonium prototyping paperweight (they're
> very cool), and Actel and Lattice people will post just to remind us
> that they have low-cost kits too, but I'm primarily interested in some
> info from real, live, "working" hobbyists.

Lattice have the OpenSource Mico8, and their MachXO means you can get
a tiny, but working, SoftCPU in one low cost chip.

AS Assembler has added support for the Mico8, giving a second ASM tool flow.

>
> Any takers?


<paste>
Hal Murray wrote:

> The Xilinx store still doesn't carry the small Coolrunner IIs.
> Digikey doesn't stock any of them.

Yes, alas, more signs of 'big company syndrome' from Xilinx

How hard can it have been to have ensured the newish '32A/64A'
were there, before they yanked the older ones.... ?
( and in the new packages too ?! )

With the Webstore as it is now, users might think any/all of
a) They do not want these in new designs
b) There is some supply problem, with smaller CPLDs
c) Xilinx is phasing out emphasis on smaller CPLDs
[Xilinx are now last in release of new CPLD devices..]

-jg

On 12 Jan 2006 12:15:13 -0800, "Kevin Morris" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I'm writing a feature article for FPGA Journal (www.fpgajournal.com)
>about FPGAs and the re-birth of the electronics hobbyist. My theory is
>that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age" period, maybe
>from the early/mid 1970s until recently becuase of the inaccessibility
>and cost of designing with state-of-the-art technology. Radio Shack
>shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits and hobbyist parts to
>selling toys, cell-phones, and stereo equipment.

er, no, I wouldn't have said the late 70's or 80s were in any way a dark
age for the hobbyist...

admittedly around 1980 all a hobbyist had to play with was the Z80 or
6502, but at the time they WERE state of the art. It was probably the
last time a hobbyist could build a computer, modify or even write the
BIOS, and actually understand pretty much every detail of a machine
capable of running the leading OS and applications.

>Now, with the emergence of low-cost, high-capability FPGAs, development
>boards, and design software, I see a new age of hobbyist activity
>beginning (as often evidenced in this group).

If anything, it's a return to those days, with Linux in the place of
CP/M, (though Linux is too big to _really_ understand), and with WebPack
in the place of that fat orange book (you know the one), 16-pin sockets,
and the wire wrap tool.

Pete A will probably maintain the fat book was actually bright red!

>I'm looking for a few people that would be willing to express views on
>this topic for the article.
> but I'm primarily interested in some
>info from real, live, "working" hobbyists.

Digital clock, 1978.

FM tuner, 1979.

Dictation type cassette recorder, hacked for hi-fi stereo headphone use,
in progress summer 1980. Yes, the summer the Walkman came out. Grrr...

Richard Russell Board (Z80, 32k later 64k RAM; a BBC OS (not BBC Micro!)
and later CPM 1982,3,4) An oddball (but good!) in the ZX80, ZX81 era.

Mahogany laptop (64180 based) ca 1987, but it was getting obsolete
faster than I could finish it...

Vacuum tube amp restorations, various.

Some deaf microphones, ca 1995, until I gave up and used commercial
capsules. (The electronics and enclosures were my own though)

Don't know if these count.

....then working from home and non-electronic hobbies started taking
over...

- Brian

Don't have the time for an interview but I think you need to revise your
time line. I was etching my own PC boards, hand assembling boards, and
burning my own proms up to the early 90s. The "dark age" was probably in the
90s when everything switched over to surface mount.

I think the renaissance now is hacking WITHOUT a soldering iron, e.g.
hacking tivo or ipod software, building custom mame video machines,
re-flashing boxes like linksys routers, etc.


"Kevin Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
> I'm writing a feature article for FPGA Journal (www.fpgajournal.com)
> about FPGAs and the re-birth of the electronics hobbyist. My theory is
> that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age" period, maybe
> from the early/mid 1970s until recently becuase of the inaccessibility
> and cost of designing with state-of-the-art technology. Radio Shack
> shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits and hobbyist parts to
> selling toys, cell-phones, and stereo equipment.
>
> Now, with the emergence of low-cost, high-capability FPGAs, development
> boards, and design software, I see a new age of hobbyist activity
> beginning (as often evidenced in this group).
>
> I'm looking for a few people that would be willing to express views on
> this topic for the article.
>
> I know, Austin will probably post a strong technical argument that
> Xilinx FPGAs are uniquely attractive to the hobbyist, somebody from
> Altera will send me a Cubic Cyclonium prototyping paperweight (they're
> very cool), and Actel and Lattice people will post just to remind us
> that they have low-cost kits too, but I'm primarily interested in some
> info from real, live, "working" hobbyists.
>
> Any takers?
>

Kevin,

Actually, I do have some possible places for you to go look:

University robotics competitions

The DARPA intelligent vehicle crowd (Berkeley's motorcycle used V2 Pro
for vision, just too bad they used a two wheel vehicle, and it fell over
and were disqualified!). The Mars rovers used Virtex' for control, but
they have six wheels!

Amateur radio software defined radio: ARRL Magazine has their technical
rag, http://www.arrl.org/qex/

which has had articles of SDR using both Xilinx and Altera FPGAs. There
is even a hobby project SDR that comes with a FPGA.

Good luck,

Austin

On 12 Jan 2006 12:15:13 -0800, "Kevin Morris" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm writing a feature article for FPGA Journal (www.fpgajournal.com)
>about FPGAs and the re-birth of the electronics hobbyist. My theory is
>that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age" period, maybe
>from the early/mid 1970s until recently becuase of the inaccessibility
>and cost of designing with state-of-the-art technology. Radio Shack
>shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits and hobbyist parts to
>selling toys, cell-phones, and stereo equipment.

I think it was more about the fact that it became less possible to build things for less money than
you could buy them for...
>
>Now, with the emergence of low-cost, high-capability FPGAs, development
>boards, and design software, I see a new age of hobbyist activity
>beginning (as often evidenced in this group).
>
>I'm looking for a few people that would be willing to express views on
>this topic for the article.
>
>I know, Austin will probably post a strong technical argument that
>Xilinx FPGAs are uniquely attractive to the hobbyist, somebody from
>Altera will send me a Cubic Cyclonium prototyping paperweight (they're
>very cool), and Actel and Lattice people will post just to remind us
>that they have low-cost kits too, but I'm primarily interested in some
>info from real, live, "working" hobbyists.
>
>Any takers?

I assume you are aware of www.fpga4fun.com - you should certainly ask for input there.

A few assorted ramblings, in no particular order....

I think a major development has been the availability of free devtools - for a long, long time PLDs
and later FPGAs were the exclusive territory of the professionals due to the high entry cost of the
software, not to mention the steep learning curve and cost of the computing power needed at the
time. Few hobbyists would have the patience to wait through multi-hour compile times.

I think the FPGA hobbyist thing has happened more by accident than anything else due to the
availability of cheap devboards and free software, rather than any conscious effort by FPGA
suppliers.
I don't think the FPGA companies have yet really woken up to the needs of the low-volume user
market. Contrast this with companies like Microchip in the MCU arena, who have always had a policy
of supporting the lower volume users, not necessarily hobbyists in particular, but by catering for
low-volumes this happens anyway - easy availability of chips in sensible packages at low volumes
makes a big difference, and many hobbyist/student users go on to be professional users, which in
the long term has to be good for the business of the companies whose products they first started
playing with .

I'm a little surprised that we haven't yet seen (well not that I've noticed - apologies if I've
missed you...) any of the many hobbyist oriented suppliers that have appeared in the MCU area in
recent years start looking at making very low cost FPGA boards - for example a PCB with a 40 pin DIL
footprint containing a small FPGA, config device and JTAG connector maybe be quite popular.
As long as FPGAs are the preserve of distributors like Avnet, low-volume/hobbyist takeup is going to
be limited. Packaging is an obvoius barrier, and I doubt that many FPGA hobbyists venture further
than using ready-made demo boards.

On the other hand I also wonder how many hobbyists actually have a need for the speed and power that
an FPGA provides - there are so many fun thnigs that can be done with microcontrollers, how many
hobbyists have the time and inclination to venture into the sort of speeds and complexities that
need FPGAS (and have the test gear to support it).

I would be somewhat skeptical about FPGAs being anything to do with a 'rebirth of the electronics
hobbyist', if such a rebirth is indeed occurring. Unless maybe you consider a move by some of the
people that were messing with MCUs into FPGAs a shift from a software to a hardware activity, which
is tenuous at best..! OK, a few hobbyists are moving into work that is of much greater complexity
than was possible without FPGAs but I doubt that there are many who have seen FPGAs as a way into
electronics in general.

From a personal point of view, although an electronics professional, I also manage to do the
occasional hobby project, and recently ventured into the world FPGAs for a project that would simply
not have been worth the effort doing without the availability of a cheap FPGA devboard and software
to base it on : www.electricstuff.co.uk/ektapro.html (lower half of page), and I already have plans
for another couple of 'fun' FPGA projects.

In article <[email protected] .com>,
Kevin Morris <[email protected]> wrote:
>I'm writing a feature article for FPGA Journal (www.fpgajournal.com)
>about FPGAs and the re-birth of the electronics hobbyist. My theory is
>that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age" period, maybe
>from the early/mid 1970s until recently becuase of the inaccessibility
>and cost of designing with state-of-the-art technology. Radio Shack
>shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits and hobbyist parts to
>selling toys, cell-phones, and stereo equipment.

Well, I would say that the 'dark age' began more in the early to mid 80's when
everything started going surface mount. Lots of people experimented with 74XX
parts back when they were in DIP packages.

>
>Now, with the emergence of low-cost, high-capability FPGAs, development
>boards, and design software, I see a new age of hobbyist activity
>beginning (as often evidenced in this group).
>
>I'm looking for a few people that would be willing to express views on
>this topic for the article.
>
>I know, Austin will probably post a strong technical argument that
>Xilinx FPGAs are uniquely attractive to the hobbyist, somebody from
>Altera will send me a Cubic Cyclonium prototyping paperweight (they're
>very cool), and Actel and Lattice people will post just to remind us
>that they have low-cost kits too, but I'm primarily interested in some
>info from real, live, "working" hobbyists.

it doesn't matter who makes the kits, per se, it's the fact that for $100 now
you can buy an FPGA starter kit with 300,000 to 400,000 gates or so (and a
good amount of memory). I really think the Xilinxs, Alteras, Lattices, etc. don't
know what they've got. Perhaps they don't want to be bothered with a
consumer/hobbyist market, however, I think that a company like Radio Shack
could really capitalize on this: kind of like a return to the 50-in-1 project
kits we had as kids, only now it could be 50,000 in one with an FPGA board,
memory, USB interface, etc. They could setup a website where people could
download & share code. They could sell addons: sensor boards, etc. Given the
success of Lego Mindstorms (and there's the new Lego NXT robotics kits coming
out this summer) it seems to me that there is an opportunity for consumer level
FPGA kit priced under $200.

Software engineers could be a good market for an FPGA kit aimed at
helping them to create hardware accelerators for software - maybe a relatively
small market right now, but it could really grow if hardware acceleration
became 'easy' (or at least 'easier').

Also, look at the success of Make magazine: it seems to indicate that there's
potentially a big market of makers, tinkerers, hardware hackers, etc.

>
>Any takers?
>

I think the advent of open source FPGA related design software will also help
bring in more hobbyists.

Phil

I have struggled for decades to come up with enticing demo projects for
digital circuits, and I have made my rules:
It must be something that cannot be done with just a microprocessor.
That means it must be something fast. Audio, video, radio, robotics
come to mind.
Or, for FPGAs, it must be a platform that allows all sorts of
variations. Like the Swis Army knife of electronics.
Most likely it must be something that appeals to a limited number of
people. That way the toy industry has not yet made it available for $
9.99. (That was the death of some of my keyboard synthesizer projects
in the 'seventies.)
I think a secondary light-triggered (slave) flash unit would be very
useful for all those small digital cameras, but that does not need an
FPGA... :-(
Peter Alfke

Kevin, I agree with you.
(even if I think that the starter kit are still too expensive for
people that want electronics as an hobby)
I'm going to write some articles for an italian magazine (Fare
Elettronica) about FPGA.
This magazine is for people that like electronics as hobby.
In my articles I'll talk about the Xilinxs FPGA and in 5 aticles I will
introduce people to this technology.

Francesco

Kevin

I'll start by saying I represent manufacturer making low cost boards but I
can pass offline some of the feedback we get from users of our products
particularly our Raggedstone1 and low cost modules that we sell also.
Generally I would say that the fact that FPGA boards like ours now cost less
that it takes to fill my car with fuel so that the start-up cost is nearly
inconsequential to most hobby engineers. Coupled to that you get free fully
function tools from most silicon vendors, and that achieving timing in
designs at frequencies below say 50MHz is now easy, the marriage of factors
is allowing hobbyists to use the technology. Looking back to say 10 years
ago most of these factors didn't exist or were very limited and the barrier
to hobby use was hugh. I can be contacted through our support email or
telephone number, available on our website, if you want a bit more feedback.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Low Cost Spartan3 PCI
Development Board.
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk

"Kevin Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
> I'm writing a feature article for FPGA Journal (www.fpgajournal.com)
> about FPGAs and the re-birth of the electronics hobbyist. My theory is
> that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age" period, maybe
> from the early/mid 1970s until recently becuase of the inaccessibility
> and cost of designing with state-of-the-art technology. Radio Shack
> shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits and hobbyist parts to
> selling toys, cell-phones, and stereo equipment.
>
> Now, with the emergence of low-cost, high-capability FPGAs, development
> boards, and design software, I see a new age of hobbyist activity
> beginning (as often evidenced in this group).
>
> I'm looking for a few people that would be willing to express views on
> this topic for the article.
>
> I know, Austin will probably post a strong technical argument that
> Xilinx FPGAs are uniquely attractive to the hobbyist, somebody from
> Altera will send me a Cubic Cyclonium prototyping paperweight (they're
> very cool), and Actel and Lattice people will post just to remind us
> that they have low-cost kits too, but I'm primarily interested in some
> info from real, live, "working" hobbyists.
>
> Any takers?
>

"Peter Alfke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
>I have struggled for decades to come up with enticing demo projects for
> digital circuits, and I have made my rules:
> It must be something that cannot be done with just a microprocessor.
> That means it must be something fast. Audio, video, radio, robotics
> come to mind.
> Or, for FPGAs, it must be a platform that allows all sorts of
> variations. Like the Swis Army knife of electronics.
> Most likely it must be something that appeals to a limited number of
> people. That way the toy industry has not yet made it available for $
> 9.99. (That was the death of some of my keyboard synthesizer projects
> in the 'seventies.)
> I think a secondary light-triggered (slave) flash unit would be very
> useful for all those small digital cameras, but that does not need an
> FPGA... :-(
> Peter Alfke

Why not an fpga synthesizer project ?

Projects like that appeal to people.

Things like the fpga4fun projects.

Something like a music visualiser like the ones in winamp etc
most micros aren't powerful enough for that.

Or a software am radio.
Use a fpga to replicate a couple of dollar tranny radio.

Or some simple dsp projects like filters without using system
generator or core generator.
Pitch shifter, simple wah effect etc

Update all the old analog type projects the hobby magazines have/had for
fpga.

One company could probably capture a lot of the hobbyist market if they
produced a pdf magazine or quarterly with these sort of projects.
As others have said provide the source code and maybe even an area to share
projects.

A bit like the Atmel applications journal when it started out.

I'm still surprised non of the fpga companies have targeted the
US board of education market like parallax has with the basic stamp.

Use a s3e or s3 starter kit or dip module, with a "simple" soft-core that
has a basic compiler for it
that hides the internals.
Simplify the schematics with like an icon based design environment like
corechart
http://www.elabtronics.com/products_cat_CoreChart.htm

Could also easily target this at robotics as well.

Get them using your products from 12 years onwards.

Could stimulate designs like this by having a circuit cellar
design contest and targeting it at the hobby market.

Alex

On a sunny day (12 Jan 2006 17:10:56 -0800) it happened "Peter Alfke"
<[email protected]> wrote in
<[email protected] .com>:

>I have struggled for decades to come up with enticing demo projects for
>digital circuits, and I have made my rules:
>It must be something that cannot be done with just a microprocessor.
>That means it must be something fast. Audio, video, radio, robotics
>come to mind.
>Or, for FPGAs, it must be a platform that allows all sorts of
>variations. Like the Swis Army knife of electronics.
>Most likely it must be something that appeals to a limited number of
>people. That way the toy industry has not yet made it available for $
>9.99. (That was the death of some of my keyboard synthesizer projects
>in the 'seventies.)
>I think a secondary light-triggered (slave) flash unit would be very
>useful for all those small digital cameras, but that does not need an
>FPGA... :-(
>Peter Alfke
>
OK I wanted to shut up on this, no I am no hobbyist, but I once was one.
Still I tinker with stuff on the side.
No running light etc.. is the interest of the 'current tinkerer'.
Yes, high speed video.
The current tinkerer (in me) needs an FPGA board with H264 decoder
capable of doing H264 main profile, something like this:
Stream #0.0, 50.00 fps(r): Video: h264, yuv420p, 1920x1088

The current tinkerer knows there is no real H264 acceleration graphics
card with Linux driver, the current tinkerer also want to decode any
encrypted....
The current tinkerer KNOWS systems change every few years, and wants to keep
using the same hardware as long as possible, the current tinkerer wants
VGA DVI and perhaps HDCP, and the current tinkerer wants Ethernet RJ45
100 MB/s to connect to the board.. and Linux soft like WebPack-8.1 to program
it.
The current tinkerer knows he needs a dual core Pentium 4 3.2 to pull
it all of in software (better then that, even dual Opteron does not hack it
actually), so here comes the price advantage of the FPGA solution.
But only for so long, until the first H264 chips or accelerated graphics
cards are on the market.

So, throw in the H262 codec IP (or just the decoder) with the required
soft and 'demo board', make sure it has that VGA (without earth noise
problems), and RJ45 connector... and put it in the web shop.

Hey I have it all working in C, have the source... developing a H264 decoder
is some job.... maybe one of those C to HDL compilers... dunno.

So the real hobbyist I was in the sixties build his own vidicon camera and TVs
and what not... do not underestimate the real hobbyist ;-)
And that kind of person will go for FPGA.
The E Hobbyist was never 'dead', look at all the micro boards, then PICs, but
indeed these demo FPGA boards are much more then that, they are universal
building blocks.
Just make sure it has the right IO.

Alex

We are half way there at the moment and a lot more is coming to fill in the
gaps.So wait and see.

John Adair
Enterpoint Ltd. - Home of Raggedstone1. The Low Cost Spartan-3 Development
Board.
http://www.enterpoint.co.uk


"Alex Gibson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
>
> "Peter Alfke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected] oups.com...
>>I have struggled for decades to come up with enticing demo projects for
>> digital circuits, and I have made my rules:
>> It must be something that cannot be done with just a microprocessor.
>> That means it must be something fast. Audio, video, radio, robotics
>> come to mind.
>> Or, for FPGAs, it must be a platform that allows all sorts of
>> variations. Like the Swis Army knife of electronics.
>> Most likely it must be something that appeals to a limited number of
>> people. That way the toy industry has not yet made it available for $
>> 9.99. (That was the death of some of my keyboard synthesizer projects
>> in the 'seventies.)
>> I think a secondary light-triggered (slave) flash unit would be very
>> useful for all those small digital cameras, but that does not need an
>> FPGA... :-(
>> Peter Alfke
>
> Why not an fpga synthesizer project ?
>
> Projects like that appeal to people.
>
> Things like the fpga4fun projects.
>
> Something like a music visualiser like the ones in winamp etc
> most micros aren't powerful enough for that.
>
> Or a software am radio.
> Use a fpga to replicate a couple of dollar tranny radio.
>
> Or some simple dsp projects like filters without using system
> generator or core generator.
> Pitch shifter, simple wah effect etc
>
> Update all the old analog type projects the hobby magazines have/had for
> fpga.
>
> One company could probably capture a lot of the hobbyist market if they
> produced a pdf magazine or quarterly with these sort of projects.
> As others have said provide the source code and maybe even an area to
> share projects.
>
> A bit like the Atmel applications journal when it started out.
>
> I'm still surprised non of the fpga companies have targeted the
> US board of education market like parallax has with the basic stamp.
>
> Use a s3e or s3 starter kit or dip module, with a "simple" soft-core that
> has a basic compiler for it
> that hides the internals.
> Simplify the schematics with like an icon based design environment like
> corechart
> http://www.elabtronics.com/products_cat_CoreChart.htm
>
> Could also easily target this at robotics as well.
>
> Get them using your products from 12 years onwards.
>
> Could stimulate designs like this by having a circuit cellar
> design contest and targeting it at the hobby market.
>
> Alex
>

On 12 Jan 2006 12:15:13 -0800, "Kevin Morris"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm writing a feature article for FPGA Journal (www.fpgajournal.com)
>about FPGAs and the re-birth of the electronics hobbyist. My theory is
>that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age" period, maybe
>from the early/mid 1970s until recently becuase of the inaccessibility
>and cost of designing with state-of-the-art technology. Radio Shack
>shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits and hobbyist parts to
>selling toys, cell-phones, and stereo equipment.
>
>Now, with the emergence of low-cost, high-capability FPGAs, development
>boards, and design software, I see a new age of hobbyist activity
>beginning (as often evidenced in this group).
>
>I'm looking for a few people that would be willing to express views on
>this topic for the article.
>
>I know, Austin will probably post a strong technical argument that
>Xilinx FPGAs are uniquely attractive to the hobbyist, somebody from
>Altera will send me a Cubic Cyclonium prototyping paperweight (they're
>very cool), and Actel and Lattice people will post just to remind us
>that they have low-cost kits too, but I'm primarily interested in some
>info from real, live, "working" hobbyists.
>
>Any takers?

I *used* to be an electronics hobbyist, but now I do it full-time.

The trend here is increasingly towards digital and software,
increasingly away from actual electricity. The tools of choice become
PCs and green eyeshades, same as the gear needed to be an accountant.

This is partly because it's less messy, and because universities can
replace expensive lab benches and test equipment with cheap laptop PCs
that the students have to buy themselves. Hell, you can get an "EE"
degree now without studying electromagnetics!

I walked through the EE department at Cornell and counted screens. PC
screens outnumbered oscilloscope screens by about 6:1.

That's fine by me: I design instrumentation that's analog intense, and
the uPs and FPGAs play supporting roles. But a lot of kids are missing
the luxury boat if the only numbers they know how to count are 0 and
1.

John

Hello Kevin,

You are welcome to contact me directly. You know what they say about
opinions... I have one, too. You can check out my hobby-ish activites
at:

http://www.fpga-games.com (self-funded hobby)
http:///www.engr.sjsu.edu/crabill (some funds from Ahhhnold and the
State of California)

I'm standing on the shoulders of great people like Mr. Mike J from FPGA
Arcade over at:

http://www.fpgaarcade.com

Also, I think another very interesting product for recreational
learning is the XGS, see:

http://www.xgamestation.com

Of course, you could implement the whole XGS in a small FPGA, but for
someone with a CS background (or none at all) a product like the XGS
might be a very enticing first step into the world of electronics.

Eric Crabill
Speaking for Myself

"John Larkin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
>
> I walked through the EE department at Cornell and counted screens. PC
> screens outnumbered oscilloscope screens by about 6:1.
>
> That's fine by me: I design instrumentation that's analog intense, and
> the uPs and FPGAs play supporting roles. But a lot of kids are missing
> the luxury boat if the only numbers they know how to count are 0 and
> 1.
>
Hi John,
I design the same stuff. However, I find I'm using my PC more and more.
Simulating it and getting the design right first spin is much nicer than
fixing it later, at least that's what the CEO says. I have software on my PC
that (I hear) uses lots of 0's and 1's together to model real numbers.
Lovely! ;-)
Cheers, Syms.
p.s. But you're right. I don't own a boat.

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:56:20 -0000, "Symon" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>"John Larkin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]. .
>>
>> I walked through the EE department at Cornell and counted screens. PC
>> screens outnumbered oscilloscope screens by about 6:1.
>>
>> That's fine by me: I design instrumentation that's analog intense, and
>> the uPs and FPGAs play supporting roles. But a lot of kids are missing
>> the luxury boat if the only numbers they know how to count are 0 and
>> 1.
>>
>Hi John,
>I design the same stuff. However, I find I'm using my PC more and more.
>Simulating it and getting the design right first spin is much nicer than
>fixing it later, at least that's what the CEO says. I have software on my PC
>that (I hear) uses lots of 0's and 1's together to model real numbers.
>Lovely! ;-)
>Cheers, Syms.
>p.s. But you're right. I don't own a boat.
>

So, I wonder, how many people here are exclusively logic designers,
and how many are more general EEs, who deal with the analog, power,
thermal, and other aspects of electronic design?

John

Kevin Morris wrote:

>I'm writing a feature article for FPGA Journal (www.fpgajournal.com)
>about FPGAs and the re-birth of the electronics hobbyist. My theory is
>that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age" period, maybe
>
>
Well, I'm not really a hobbyist, but a VERY small business (just me, and
sometimes
a part-timer to help solder boards.) But, the level of stuff I'm doing
(in my home
business) is maybe close to hobby level. You might look at my web pages on
that project, and see if it is of interest :
http://pico-systems.com/motion.html
All of the "control" or "controller" products have at least one FPGA in
them.
The PPMC has one FPGA and 2 CPLDs for the basic set. No way could I have
done these without FPGAs. I have never used a development board, just
bludgeoned
ahead with my best guess of what the prototype should look like. And,
just 2-layer
boards, too.

Jon

"Peter Alfke" <[email protected]> writes:
> I have struggled for decades to come up with enticing demo projects for
> digital circuits, and I have made my rules:
> It must be something that cannot be done with just a microprocessor.
> That means it must be something fast. Audio, video, radio, robotics
> come to mind.

What? No traffic lights and vending machines? :-)

It's always entertaining when people pop up in various newsgroups
(including this one), wanting help with their vending machine project,
and insisting that it isn't homework.

Francesco wrote:
> (even if I think that the starter kit are still too expensive for
> people that want electronics as an hobby)

I can't claim to know the economics of hobbyists elsewhere in the world,
but IMNSHO in the US, someone who can't afford to spend USD $99 on
something needed for their hobby doesn't realy qualify as a "hobbyist".
People routinely spend orders of magnitude more than that on hobbies
other than electronics.

And yes, I remember back when I was a starving college student. Even
then I managed to spend much more than $99/year on hobby items, though
perhaps I shouldn't have.

One guy I knew back then complained that he couldn't afford a $100
computer (a Timex/Sinclair or the like), even though he typically spent
well over $100 per month on accessorizing his sports car. It's a matter
of priorities.

Kevin Morris wrote:

> My theory is that electronics as a hobby went through a "dark age"
> period, maybe from the early/mid 1970s until recently becuase of the
inaccessibility
> and cost of designing with state-of-the-art technology.

I think it is not true. Hobbyists do not need state-of-the-art technology,
they need satisfaction -- this is the key difference compared to
professional
electronics. For one person a simple LED blinker is perfectly enough,
somebody else is happy when his three transistor AM radio is working,
there also are hobbyists doing DSP using FPGAs just for fun.

The next problem is related with the lack of appropriate technologies.
SMD parts were useless, because we didn't know how to produce
good enough single layer PCBs at home, not to mention double layer
boards. Now we have two competitive technologies (optical, based on
photoactive resins and the second one, called "thermotransfer", which
directly transfers the pattern from a sheet of paper printed by a laser
printer onto the copper surface using a flatiron and two rags). We've
even learned how to make precise two-sided PCBs using that technologies.
Now the SMD components in TQFP/SO/TSSOP are no longer a
problem. But we still don't know how to solder BGAs and QFNs...

> Radio Shack shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits

I think that kits are a big misunderstanding, because you just need to
connect provided parts as described on a provided diagram. Even
a chimp could do it. The trick is to design the device yourself, from
scratch. It needn't be perfect, it sometimes produces smoke, but it's
_yours_.

> (as often evidenced in this group).

Hmm, really? ;-) As far as I know the only "pure" hobbyists
here are Antti and myself, the rest is more or less professional.

> I know, Austin will probably post a strong technical argument that
> Xilinx FPGAs are uniquely attractive to the hobbyist

Hard to obtain in small quantities...

> and Actel and Lattice people will post just to remind us
> that they have low-cost kits too

But they do not provide free simulators, so they are virtually useless for
hobbyists.

> but I'm primarily interested in some info from real, live, "working"
hobbyists.

Well, I hope it's useful... . :-)

Best regards
Piotr Wyderski

--
"If you were plowing a field, which would you rather use?
Two strong oxen or 1024 chickens?" -- Seymour Cray

Kevin Morris wrote:
>
> Any takers?

Real/Complete programming information would be a very good start to a new
hobby phase. But I think that all the FPGA vendors are too scared to give
out this information. Come on, xilinx, altera, etc, etc. What could there
possibly be so secret in the format for how to program your parts?

--
[100~Plax]sb16i0A2172656B63616820636420726568746F6E612074737 54A[dZ1!=b]salax

On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 01:55:00 +0100, "Piotr Wyderski"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Kevin Morris wrote:
>

>> Radio Shack shifted their focus from 50-in-1 project kits
>
>I think that kits are a big misunderstanding, because you just need to
>connect provided parts as described on a provided diagram. Even
>a chimp could do it.

But you want something for kids to build when they're young, before
they're capable of designing something themselves. Lots of us cut our
teeth on the 50-in-1 sets and Heathkits.

If a kid between the ages of 8 and 15 asked me how to get started in
electronics, I'd:

1) send them to Ramsey Electronics
(http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/), which makes nice, relatively
inexpensive kits of varying complexity.

2) ask them to get off my lawn. (Sort of obligatory at my age.)

Bob Perlman
Cambrian Design Works