FPGA Central

Steve wrote:
>
> "John_H" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<Q1PVb.3$[email protected]>...
> > In reality, this is
> > setting a suggested price; some stores have a different price sticker on top
> > of the pre-printed amount. Semiconductor manufacturers provide their
> > distributors and sales people with price books that give parts and grades
> > for what is available. There is no harm in this. Better prices can be had,
> > but only if you TALK with the people involved, either the Xilinx sales folks
> > or the distributor's sales people.
>
> And what volume per annum would TALKING to the people start getting
> you discounts? 50k per annum or some such ridiculously high figure
> that start-ups cannot get to?

I have found that a 1k per year quantity will get you discounts.
Actually, I got a decent discount once when I was saying I would buy in
lots of 100 and I was quoted a price for 100 per year! That was on an
Altera part if I remember correctly.

In another case, I was given the qty 50,000 price when I was promising
1k per year.

Both Xilinx and Altera have lots of room to discount from the list
price. But if you are only buying 100 total, I don't see how the parts
cost you will get standard will affect your competitiveness. At low
volumes there are much larger costs that dominate your pricing; NRE
(design and prototyping), support, even the cost of sales. If you
aren't making 1000 or more of something the cost of the parts is not
going to break you.

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

[email protected] (Steve) wrote in message
>
> > > Xilinx have a revenue of $1.2bn according to this:
> > >
> > > http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=xlnx
> > >
> > > Are you seriously trying to say that the cost of an FPGA
> > > representative being asked questions has anything other than a
> > > negligible effect on the prices of FPGAs?
> >
> > In-state factory FAEs, Disty FAEs. Sales teams that must be incentivized
> > to drum up demand for new parts. Then customers who go out and convert
> > their FPGA to CGAs as soon as production ramps up.
> >
> > FPGAs are not like CPUs. They are often prototype platforms.
> > Low volume, abandoned by the customer as soon as the design is
> > stable and can be converted to a CGA or ASIC.
>
>
> Read the statements that the Xilinx suits say about ASICs vs FPGAs,
> they say that ASICs are frequently being *replaced* by FPGAs.

In small volumes.

>
>
> > FPGAs are inexpensive in my view,
>
>
> In large quantities, not in small quantities.

How much would it cost to design and build an ASIC with a total
production run of say 10? Versus and FPGA. FPGAs are much cheaper.

>
>
> > and the software tools are
> > amazing. It's a good time to be an engineer.
>
>
> Do you work for a large company that buys FPGAs in large quantities by
> any chance?
>

Actually, I buy them in very small volumes. Small company. Very
reasonable pricing, very good value for what you get.

In fact, I used to work at a large company, and based on that
experience, it is large companies that get raped. On one project I
worked on, we were being charged $400/fpga that was being sold to new
customers for $100. The lowered the price when we noticed, but did
not refund the money on the devices we purchased.

>
> > But if you know a way to bring the equivalent of a Xilinx offering
> > for 25% of the price, join the marketplace, please.
>
>
> My point is that unless you buy in large quantities then small or
> start-up companies can't put Xilinx parts in their products because
> they're too expensive.

Sure they can. It is done all the time. You just need to find a
niche. Maybe you could start a company selling inexpensive FPGAs to
small start ups.

If you're having trouble coming to market with an FPGA based system,
you would probably have trouble coming to market with an ASIC.

rickman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >
> > On a sunny day (Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:21:48 -0800) it happened Peter Alfke
> > <[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:
> >
> > >If you build something in small volume, everything is expensive: design
> > >effort, pc-boards, most components, testing, marketing, advertising,
> > >selling, servicing etc. You must have a really good product to absorb
> > >all these high costs. That's life.
> > >Peter Alfke
> > Hey, of cause things are expensive.
> > Now log in to www.microchip.com
> > Find a PIC, you can enter a quantity and order right there.
> > Whats your problem?
> > Perfect for small business.
>
> And you will pay some 3 or 4 times what you would pay if you were buying
> 1000's. I know, I have looked.
>

How is this any different than any other product? Resistors, for
example. Go to digikey and try to buy 3 0805 100 Ohm resistors. Your
price per resistor will be much higher than if you bought several
dozen reels from a distributor.


> --
>
> Rick "rickman" Collins
>
> [email protected]
> Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
> removed.
>
> Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
> Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
> 4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
> Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

Rick Collins <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> ... And they will very much limit the
> amount of support they give you if you are not a large customer.

Xilinx gives me good support. Great support. It might be that I
have found documentation errors, errors in unisim/simprim models,
and that my questions are usually (but not always) valid. I don't
call asking why my code is resulting in a latch, for example. I
sometimes ask a stupid question, but I try not to.

All this while I am a small customer. It might be that I have
worked in the past for large companies. It might be luck. The
Xilinx support web site sometimes bites in the performance
department, but I get great support when it is working, and
good support from local (factory and disty) FAEs if they aren't
swamped.

I have also received good support from Actel and Altera. I received
good support from Actel on a part that they new was going to be used
in test equipment, that they knew we would only buy 3 of their
devices for...

William Wallace wrote:
> rickman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
<snip>
>>
>>And you will pay some 3 or 4 times what you would pay if you were buying
>>1000's. I know, I have looked.
>>
>
>
> How is this any different than any other product? Resistors, for
> example. Go to digikey and try to buy 3 0805 100 Ohm resistors. Your
> price per resistor will be much higher than if you bought several
> dozen reels from a distributor.

I don't think anyone expects a flat price curve ( except in the
promotion special case I mentioned earlier ).

What is at issue, is the lazy application of the jelly-bean-resistor
type price curves to much more expensive parts.

Each sales transacton has a cost, and each customer call has a cost,
but those costs do not scale with the device price.

eg
A price structure that has a 1 off price of $15, and volume price of $4
is probably OK to most users.
What's harder to justify, is a 1 off price of $150, and volume price of
$40.
In one case you are saying "it costs $11 more to handle small volumes"
- fine, but how can that possibly justify $110 extra on the larger
device - ?

-jg

Interesting thread. I reply to the top message because of the many
tentacles the thread developed.

Yes, of course, we would all like to pay less. No question about it. And,
it does hurt to have serious doubts about whether or not a product might be
viable mainly due to the cost of the FPGA's you'll need in small quantities.
I understand this very well.

The error here might be a good-old standard in business: communication.
Talk to your sales rep. Contact Xilinx/Altera. Let them know what you are
doing. Explain what problems you have. There are real people behind the
emails, websites, brochures and chips. Make contact. You'd be surprised to
learn what can be achieved with a little bit of effort.

From the perspective of a small company I can tell you that I'm blown away
to see the effort put forth recently (and continuing) to support us. This
both by Xilinx and Avnet. Both of these companies could afford to loose our
business and they wouldn't even know it happened. However, like I said,
there are people behind it all. Never forget that.


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Martin Euredjian

To send private email:
[email protected]
where
"0_0_0_0_" = "martineu"



"Steve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] om...
> I've been looking for historical prices of FPGAs to try and get an
> idea of what I might expect to get for a given price for small
> quantities and came across this post:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/36blb
>
> which has a price table for small quantities (<=25) for January 2000:
>
> Spartan
> XCS05 3PC84C 10.00
> XCS10 3PC84C 18.10
> XCS20 3PQ208C 40.40
> XCS30 3PQ208C 45.35
> XCS40 3PQ208C 49.15
>
> Virtex
> XCV50 4PQ240C 55.40
> XCV100 4PQ240C 104.00
> XCV150 4PQ240C 128.00
> XCV200 4PQ240C 157.00
> XCV300 4PQ240C 244.00
> XCV400 4HQ240C 344.00
> XCV600 4HQ240C 581.00
> XCV800 4HQ240C 860.00
>
>
> I compared the above prices with the prices on these web pages, that I
> assume are up to date because they stock up to date chips:
>
> Spartan: http://www.plis.ru/price.html?ID=121
> Virtex: http://www.plis.ru/price.html?ID=111
>
> and all of the prices on the Russian website are exactly the same
> price today as they were from a different supplier in January 2000.
>
> Why are they exactly the same price?
>
> Do Xilinx tell their resellers what to charge? And if so, isn't this
> illegal?
>
> Also, why is there such an enormous price difference per part between
> massive quantities and smaller quantities? Xilinx make X million of
> part Y, so why do they charge so many hundred percent higher prices
> for small quantities than very large quantities?
>
> As there is such a huge difference in prices between large and small
> quantities, why isn't there a supplier that buys largish quantities to
> sell in smaller quantities so that the supplier makes a profit and the
> purchaser of small quantities gets chips cheaper?
>
> Also, what does happen to FPGA prices over time? Do they just reach a
> final value and they never get any cheaper? That would explain why
> prices would be very similar in 2000 and 2004, but not why they're
> identical. You can get a Spartan 2E XC2S150E-6PQ208C for $20.45 from
> the above Russian website today. What might you expect to be able to
> get for $20 in, say, 2 years' time?
>
> --
> Steve
>

William Wallace wrote:

> rickman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>
>>>On a sunny day (Mon, 09 Feb 2004 13:21:48 -0800) it happened Peter Alfke
>>><[email protected]> wrote in <[email protected]>:
>>>
>>>
>>>>If you build something in small volume, everything is expensive: design
>>>>effort, pc-boards, most components, testing, marketing, advertising,
>>>>selling, servicing etc. You must have a really good product to absorb
>>>>all these high costs. That's life.
>>>>Peter Alfke
>>>
>>>Hey, of cause things are expensive.
>>>Now log in to www.microchip.com
>>>Find a PIC, you can enter a quantity and order right there.
>>>Whats your problem?
>>>Perfect for small business.
>>
>>And you will pay some 3 or 4 times what you would pay if you were buying
>>1000's. I know, I have looked.
>>
>
>
> How is this any different than any other product? Resistors, for
> example. Go to digikey and try to buy 3 0805 100 Ohm resistors. Your
> price per resistor will be much higher than if you bought several
> dozen reels from a distributor.

Yes, then add 15$ for shipping the 3 resistors.
Or 30$ or so for express delivery.

Rene

Peter Alfke <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> This is really simple, Capitalism 101:
>
> Manufacturer invents and makes part.
> Uses seval competing distributors to sell the part to the public.
> Manufacturer optimizes his profit by charging distributor a certain
> price, and also publishes a pricebook with "Manufacturer Recommended
> Resale Price" MSRP.
> Distributor can sell in any quantity and for any price he wants, high or
> low, but he will try to optimize his profit.
> Customer will buy at the lowest possible price consistent with the
> desired level of service and support.
> This is true for food, shirts, cars, and ICs. For Tiffany's, Nordstrom,
> Safeway and CostCo.


This is really simple; Oligopoly 101:

Oligopolists value high order quantities highly and small order
quantities as not being worth the hassle.
Oligopolists watch competitors and are happy if all oligopolists in
the market view small order quantities as not being worth the hassle.
Certain oligopolists have a high vested interest in having smooth and
monotonic price vs size curves, which can be maintained by having few
distributors, and *possibly* a say on the prices they charge to
buyers, and *possibly* exert pressure on distributors to toe the line.
Oligopolists are happy.
Those wanting to buy small order quantities are screwed.


> But rest assured that we are seriously looking at ways to improve the
> plight of the low-volume customer. Some of your complaints did not fall
> on deaf ears.


I'll quote the British phrase "the proof of the pudding is in the
eating", or in other words I'll believe that when small quantity
prices come down...


--
Steve

The Columbia Encyclopedia describes oligopoly as:
....the control of supply by a few producers...or by agreements among
members of an industry to restrain price competition...

Does that describe your impression of the relationship between X and A ?
Wow !
Peter Alfke
===========================
Steve wrote:

> This is really simple; Oligopoly 101:
>
> Oligopolists value high order quantities highly and small order
> quantities as not being worth the hassle.
> Oligopolists watch competitors and are happy if all oligopolists in
> the market view small order quantities as not being worth the hassle.
> Certain oligopolists have a high vested interest in having smooth and
> monotonic price vs size curves, which can be maintained by having few
> distributors, and *possibly* a say on the prices they charge to
> buyers, and *possibly* exert pressure on distributors to toe the line.
> Oligopolists are happy.
> Those wanting to buy small order quantities are screwed.
>
> > But rest assured that we are seriously looking at ways to improve the
> > plight of the low-volume customer. Some of your complaints did not fall
> > on deaf ears.
>
> I'll quote the British phrase "the proof of the pudding is in the
> eating", or in other words I'll believe that when small quantity
> prices come down...
>
> --
> Steve

When was the last time you asked for technical support on a resistor? Part of the pricing
pays for the tech support, which is more or less a per customer charge rather than a per piece
charge. Naturally, if you are buying a large quantity, the tech support per peice is going to
be considerably less. Tech support is one of the distributor's largest costs.

Jim Granville wrote:

> William Wallace wrote:
> > rickman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> <snip>
> >>
> >>And you will pay some 3 or 4 times what you would pay if you were buying
> >>1000's. I know, I have looked.
> >>
> >
> >
> > How is this any different than any other product? Resistors, for
> > example. Go to digikey and try to buy 3 0805 100 Ohm resistors. Your
> > price per resistor will be much higher than if you bought several
> > dozen reels from a distributor.
>
> I don't think anyone expects a flat price curve ( except in the
> promotion special case I mentioned earlier ).
>
> What is at issue, is the lazy application of the jelly-bean-resistor
> type price curves to much more expensive parts.
>
> Each sales transacton has a cost, and each customer call has a cost,
> but those costs do not scale with the device price.
>
> eg
> A price structure that has a 1 off price of $15, and volume price of $4
> is probably OK to most users.
> What's harder to justify, is a 1 off price of $150, and volume price of
> $40.
> In one case you are saying "it costs $11 more to handle small volumes"
> - fine, but how can that possibly justify $110 extra on the larger
> device - ?
>
> -jg

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email [email protected]
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Ray Andraka wrote:

> When was the last time you asked for technical support on a resistor?

Actually, more recently than I asked for support on a CPLD but I do
get your point...

> Part of the pricing
> pays for the tech support, which is more or less a per customer charge rather than a per piece
> charge. Naturally, if you are buying a large quantity, the tech support per peice is going to
> be considerably less. Tech support is one of the distributor's largest costs.

I believe I said that.
The question is how to justify the $40 -> $150, alongside
the $4 -> $15 device price/volume curve.
FPGAs are a great example of where bigger devices just give you more
of everything - the software tools are identical, and in most cases so
are the building blocks, and even large chunks of data.
So the tech support cost of the large/small fpgas are largely similar.

The real reasons for such lazy pricing have more to do with the
bean-counters, and wanting to have a certain % margin on stock.
Which is OK if the disti's actually HAVE stock...

Solution would be to have a WEB page sales system, that has a
relatively high ($20-$30-?) line item processing charge, and a
more sensible true device cost on the silicon itself.
Still makes a nominal profit, but accelerates the design-wins,
and ramp-ups of the devices...

-jg

Steve wrote:
>
> Peter Alfke <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > This is really simple, Capitalism 101:
> >
> > Manufacturer invents and makes part.
> > Uses seval competing distributors to sell the part to the public.
> > Manufacturer optimizes his profit by charging distributor a certain
> > price, and also publishes a pricebook with "Manufacturer Recommended
> > Resale Price" MSRP.
> > Distributor can sell in any quantity and for any price he wants, high or
> > low, but he will try to optimize his profit.
> > Customer will buy at the lowest possible price consistent with the
> > desired level of service and support.
> > This is true for food, shirts, cars, and ICs. For Tiffany's, Nordstrom,
> > Safeway and CostCo.
>
> This is really simple; Oligopoly 101:
>
> Oligopolists value high order quantities highly and small order
> quantities as not being worth the hassle.
> Oligopolists watch competitors and are happy if all oligopolists in
> the market view small order quantities as not being worth the hassle.
> Certain oligopolists have a high vested interest in having smooth and
> monotonic price vs size curves, which can be maintained by having few
> distributors, and *possibly* a say on the prices they charge to
> buyers, and *possibly* exert pressure on distributors to toe the line.
> Oligopolists are happy.
> Those wanting to buy small order quantities are screwed.
>
> > But rest assured that we are seriously looking at ways to improve the
> > plight of the low-volume customer. Some of your complaints did not fall
> > on deaf ears.
>
> I'll quote the British phrase "the proof of the pudding is in the
> eating", or in other words I'll believe that when small quantity
> prices come down...
>
> --
> Steve


Hey Steve, why don't you get off the soapbox. What you are doing is not
getting you anywhere and is starting to tick me off. Until you give a
call to your distributor and *ask* what price you can get, I don't want
to listen to your rants.

Don't make me come over there...


--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

Peter Alfke <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> The Columbia Encyclopedia describes oligopoly as:
> ...the control of supply by a few producers...or by agreements among
> members of an industry to restrain price competition...
>
> Does that describe your impression of the relationship between X and A ?
> Wow !


I prefer the majority of the definitions on here:

http://www.onelook.com/?w=oligopoly&ls=a

The quick definition on that page sums up my understanding:

"noun: (economics) a market in which control over the supply of a
commodity is in the hands of a small number of producers and each one
can influence prices and affect competitors"

You don't describe the relationship between X and A like the above
definition? Wow!


--
Steve

rickman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Hey Steve, why don't you get off the soapbox. What you are doing is not
> getting you anywhere and is starting to tick me off. Until you give a
> call to your distributor and *ask* what price you can get, I don't want
> to listen to your rants.


So far in this thread I've been accused of not understanding
economics, pricing or capitalism; seemingly just because I've had the
audacity to question Xilinx's low quantity prices. Basically, if
they're going to patronise me then I'm not going to just sit here
quietly and take it.


--
Steve

Steve,

Question away. I think the thread has allowed folks to vent a little,
and to learn why selling FPGAs is not as simple as they may have
thought. Those that are paranoid, I am afraid we can not help.
Regardless, others benefit from an open and frank discussion. I quite
often take a mildly extreme position to help focus the discussion and to
entertain (after all, why would anyone read this stuff if it wasn't
somewhat entertaining?). Anything I have said is not to be taken as an
accusation, but rather as a challenge to explain your views (which you did).

If I offended, I apologize, as that was never my intent.

Austin

Steve wrote:
>
> rickman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > Hey Steve, why don't you get off the soapbox. What you are doing is not
> > getting you anywhere and is starting to tick me off. Until you give a
> > call to your distributor and *ask* what price you can get, I don't want
> > to listen to your rants.
>
> So far in this thread I've been accused of not understanding
> economics, pricing or capitalism; seemingly just because I've had the
> audacity to question Xilinx's low quantity prices. Basically, if
> they're going to patronise me then I'm not going to just sit here
> quietly and take it.

You are not making any sense. By definition X and A have an oligopoly.
So what is your point? Your questions have no point. Your statments
are about the obvious. You are not telling anyone here anything they
don't already know. You are just acting like a spoiled brat throwing a
tantrum because he can't have dessert.

Are you just trolling or do you have a point?

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

rickman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Steve wrote:
> >
> > rickman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> > > Hey Steve, why don't you get off the soapbox. What you are doing is not
> > > getting you anywhere and is starting to tick me off. Until you give a
> > > call to your distributor and *ask* what price you can get, I don't want
> > > to listen to your rants.
> >
> > So far in this thread I've been accused of not understanding
> > economics, pricing or capitalism; seemingly just because I've had the
> > audacity to question Xilinx's low quantity prices. Basically, if
> > they're going to patronise me then I'm not going to just sit here
> > quietly and take it.
>
> You are not making any sense. By definition X and A have an oligopoly.
> So what is your point?


I was responding to Peter Alfke's comments about X and A not being an
oligopoly:

"The Columbia Encyclopedia describes oligopoly as:
....the control of supply by a few producers...or by agreements among
members of an industry to restrain price competition...

Does that describe your impression of the relationship between X and A
?
Wow !"


> Your questions have no point. Your statments
> are about the obvious.


From:

http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/silico...s3_pricing.htm

"The 3S50, 3S200, and 3S400 Spartan-3 devices with 50,000, 200,000,
and 400,000 system gates respectively, are available for less than
$6.50*. The 3S1000 Spartan-3 device with 1 million system gates is
also available for under $12.00*."

The cheapest XC3S400 (400k gates) in small quantities here:

http://www.plis.ru/price.html?ID=126

is $28.90, that's 4.45 times as expensive. The difference will narrow
when production is ramped up to maximum, but how much will it narrow
to? Three times the price, twice the price?


> You are not telling anyone here anything they
> don't already know.


Oh, so you don't mind paying highly inflated prices? Fair enough.


> You are just acting like a spoiled brat throwing a
> tantrum because he can't have dessert.


To be perfectly honest the only person ranting round here is yourself.


> Are you just trolling or do you have a point?


I've made my point and I can't be bothered to make it again.


--
Steve

Austin Lesea <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<c0g97i$[email protected]>...
> Steve,
>
> Question away. I think the thread has allowed folks to vent a little,
> and to learn why selling FPGAs is not as simple as they may have
> thought.


I've still not read a good reason why your highest volume products are
so expensive in small quantities.

The reasons that have been given up to now have been that small
companies should pay the same for support costs as large customers
whether or not they use the support. The simple solution to that would
be to charge small companies 75 cents per minute when they ring up for
support, and let the larger companies have their support unchanged.

The other reason that has been given is that distributors have to earn
a living. My heart bleeds for the poor loves...

I believe there are ways that Xilinx could improve their service to
smaller companies such as significantly increasing the number of
distributors to increase competition. Peter Alfke said:

"But rest assured that we are seriously looking at ways to improve the
plight of the low-volume customer. Some of your complaints did not
fall
on deaf ears."

so only time will tell, and it'll be interesting to watch the price of
Spartan 3's over the next year or so...


> Those that are paranoid, I am afraid we can not help.
> Regardless, others benefit from an open and frank discussion. I quite
> often take a mildly extreme position to help focus the discussion and to
> entertain (after all, why would anyone read this stuff if it wasn't
> somewhat entertaining?). Anything I have said is not to be taken as an
> accusation, but rather as a challenge to explain your views (which you did).


I admit accusation was too strong a word.


> If I offended, I apologize, as that was never my intent.


No offence taken.


--
Steve

[email protected] (Steve) wrote in message news:<[email protected] com>...
> Austin Lesea <austin@[email protected]> wrote in message


<big snip>


Anyway, I suggest we leave this thread here so we can let you Xilinx
guys get on with "seriously looking at ways to improve the plight of
the low-volume customer", and of course to avoid rickman doing
something his therapist has told him not to...

Then later in the year when the best-selling Spartan 3 chips are being
shipped in their millions we can all compare the high and low volume
prices again....


--
Steve

Steve wrote:
>
> rickman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Steve wrote:
> > >
> > > rickman <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > >
> > > > Hey Steve, why don't you get off the soapbox. What you are doing is not
> > > > getting you anywhere and is starting to tick me off. Until you give a
> > > > call to your distributor and *ask* what price you can get, I don't want
> > > > to listen to your rants.
> > >
> > > So far in this thread I've been accused of not understanding
> > > economics, pricing or capitalism; seemingly just because I've had the
> > > audacity to question Xilinx's low quantity prices. Basically, if
> > > they're going to patronise me then I'm not going to just sit here
> > > quietly and take it.
> >
> > You are not making any sense. By definition X and A have an oligopoly.
> > So what is your point?
>
> I was responding to Peter Alfke's comments about X and A not being an
> oligopoly:
>
> "The Columbia Encyclopedia describes oligopoly as:
> ...the control of supply by a few producers...or by agreements among
> members of an industry to restrain price competition...
>
> Does that describe your impression of the relationship between X and A
> ?
> Wow !"
>
> > Your questions have no point. Your statments
> > are about the obvious.
>
> From:
>
> http://www.xilinx.com/prs_rls/silico...s3_pricing.htm
>
> "The 3S50, 3S200, and 3S400 Spartan-3 devices with 50,000, 200,000,
> and 400,000 system gates respectively, are available for less than
> $6.50*. The 3S1000 Spartan-3 device with 1 million system gates is
> also available for under $12.00*."
>
> The cheapest XC3S400 (400k gates) in small quantities here:
>
> http://www.plis.ru/price.html?ID=126
>
> is $28.90, that's 4.45 times as expensive. The difference will narrow
> when production is ramped up to maximum, but how much will it narrow
> to? Three times the price, twice the price?

I think everyone who is interested in using these parts, know the
prices. That has been discussed here before. Your posts shed no new
light on the matter. Also, as I and others have mentioned before, if
you pay list price it is your own fault. Like when you buy a new car,
anyone can get a price cut just by asking. But instead of asking, you
start spewing here.


> > You are not telling anyone here anything they
> > don't already know.
>
> Oh, so you don't mind paying highly inflated prices? Fair enough.

Actually, if I am only building 10 boards, no I don't mind paying more
for the parts because my time and expense far over shadow the cost of
the chips. As others have pointed out, this is not a factor of there
being an oligopoly. This is a simple fact of volume production. But
then that has been explained to you before.


> > You are just acting like a spoiled brat throwing a
> > tantrum because he can't have dessert.
>
> To be perfectly honest the only person ranting round here is yourself.
>
> > Are you just trolling or do you have a point?
>
> I've made my point and I can't be bothered to make it again.

Good, you have already said it more than enough times.

Why is this such an issue with you? You have never explained how this
pricing affects you. Is there a board you want to sell that is priced
too high because the qty 10 prices on FPGAs are too high?

--

Rick "rickman" Collins

[email protected]
Ignore the reply address. To email me use the above address with the XY
removed.

Arius - A Signal Processing Solutions Company
Specializing in DSP and FPGA design URL http://www.arius.com
4 King Ave 301-682-7772 Voice
Frederick, MD 21701-3110 301-682-7666 FAX

He's always got the option of not using FPGAs if he feels there is a better or cheaper approach.
If he cannot find a cheaper alternative, then there should be no reason to complain, right? If he
can, then he should use that cheaper alternative, and again, there is no reason to complain.
Obviously, the price point for FPGAs is not so far off the mark since people do use them.

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email [email protected]
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759

Steve wrote:
<snip>
> I believe there are ways that Xilinx could improve their service to
> smaller companies such as significantly increasing the number of
> distributors to increase competition.

That sounds good comming off the tongue, but could actually be
counter-productive to the problem, which is high low volume prices.
Much of that business hits MOQs from vendors, and also the
'can't be bothered' threshold in Distis.
Adding MORE distis is less efficent, as now their chance of selling
stocked devices is less, since the number of customers has not increased.
Most would respond by saying - "Sure, we can get that in for you - MOQ
is xxx pcs, leadtime is yy weeks"

That's why a web/transaction based model would work better. You
focus one stock point for the low volume orders, and rationalize it
further by stocking only best spec region devices, with maybe
a sprinking of 'absolute cheapest' (slowest, worst temp range).
Semiconductor Companies are _already_ doing this - just not yet the
big FPGA ones.

-jg

"Ray Andraka" wrote:

> Obviously, the price point for FPGAs is not so far off the mark since
people do use them.

Ray, I think Steve is screaming at the delta between low and high quantity
pricing, not necessarily at any specific price. In other words, if the high
volume guys paid 50% less than low volume buyers he might not object. He is
seeing a 400% differential and that bothers him.

The rationalization might be that there are no real differences in the cost
of manufacture for the chips that the small guy is buying (vs. the large
buyer). Or the production of tools, documentation, etc. And, armed with
that, I think he's saying that he can't see what in the process of getting
chips to a small operator can justify a factor of 4x or more.

I can't say that I am in complete disagreement with the idea of questioning
pricing practices. However, I have yet to decide not to do a product based
on the price of small quantities of FPGA's. Today, thanks to FPGA's, we can
design systems that were impossible to realize not too long ago. On a
price-per-FF basis you can't beat them. And, to repeat what I said in an
earlier post, communication with the chip manufacturer is very important.
They are sensitive to your needs and I've found Xilinx (through Austin and
others) to be genuinely interested in helping the little guys.


--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Martin Euredjian

To send private email:
[email protected]
where
"0_0_0_0_" = "martineu"

[email protected] (Steve) writes:

> The other reason that has been given is that distributors have to earn
> a living. My heart bleeds for the poor loves...

Well, their hearts aren't bleeding for yours either.

They spend 90% of their time going for 10% customers. Or the one
customer having 50% of their business...

> I believe there are ways that Xilinx could improve their service to
> smaller companies such as significantly increasing the number of
> distributors to increase competition. Peter Alfke said:

So that no disti would make any effort at all except maybe send an
invoice. Not so good.

Homann
--
Magnus Homann

Given the calamitous drop in the dollar recently, find
a distributor who quotes in dollars and accepts payment
in Euros...