FPGA Central

Martin Eisenberg wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:
>
>
>>Donald wrote:
>>
>>>Jerry Avins wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>To me, you're clearly right. I accept "Everything happens
>>>>according to the (valid) laws of physics" as a matter of
>>>>faith*.
>>>
>>>Does this mean:
>>>
>>> "I have faith, that the laws of physics are true"
>>>or "I have faith, that someone has proven the laws of physics
>>>are true"
>>>
>>>One _could_ be a religon and the other _is_ science.
>>>
>>>donald
>>
>>Better would be to say that I believe that the laws of physics
>>are in the same class as Peano's axioms: accepted without proof.
>>Is mathematics a religion?
>
>
> No, because you can change your axioms like underwear without leaving
> mathematics. But that's a pretty young idea as the superstitious
> rejection shows that negative numbers, imaginaries, and many other
> concepts have once met.

First of all, I misspoke. (Miswrote?) My belief that the laws of physics
-- whatever they may turn out to be -- describe real events is in the
same class as mu accepting axioms in other intellectual pursuits. As for
changing axioms, Peano's are consistent with non-Euclidean geometries.
That's why I chose them as my example.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Rune Allnor wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > I first heard this story in school when I was about ten years old:
>
> ...
>
> > Of course, the story was not told in a science class.
>
> Is this story in a different "thread" from "All of my head but none of
> my neck"?

Hmmm.... I don't understand what you mean? I thought about writing this

story in an earlier sub-thread, but I don't think I did. I am not all
that focused
these days, so I might have accidentially double-posted it within the
last
week or so.

Rune

Rune Allnor wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:
>
>>Rune Allnor wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>>I first heard this story in school when I was about ten years old:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>>Of course, the story was not told in a science class.
>>
>>Is this story in a different "thread" from "All of my head but none of
>>my neck"?
>
>
> Hmmm.... I don't understand what you mean? I thought about writing this
>
> story in an earlier sub-thread, but I don't think I did. I am not all
> that focused
> these days, so I might have accidentially double-posted it within the
> last
> week or so.

At one point, I think after killing Balder, Loki was sentenced to death
by having his head cut off. Just as Odin couldn't go back on his word,
so he couldn't deviate from it. Loki escaped by insisting that he lose
"all of my head, but none of my neck,". Since that is impossible, the
execution never took place.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Rune Allnor wrote:
> > Jerry Avins wrote:
> >
> >>Rune Allnor wrote:
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >>
> >>>I first heard this story in school when I was about ten years old:
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >>
> >>>Of course, the story was not told in a science class.
> >>
> >>Is this story in a different "thread" from "All of my head but none of
> >>my neck"?
> >
> >
> > Hmmm.... I don't understand what you mean? I thought about writing this
> >
> > story in an earlier sub-thread, but I don't think I did. I am not all
> > that focused
> > these days, so I might have accidentially double-posted it within the
> > last
> > week or so.
>
> At one point, I think after killing Balder, Loki was sentenced to death
> by having his head cut off. Just as Odin couldn't go back on his word,
> so he couldn't deviate from it. Loki escaped by insisting that he lose
> "all of my head, but none of my neck,". Since that is impossible, the
> execution never took place.

Ah, no, this is a different story.

Loke did cause the death of Balder, the most handsome of Gods, by
decieveing the blind god Hod to shoot an arrow at Balder after all
living
creatures had sworn not to harm Balder. All living creatures except for

the misteltoe, that is, something that Loke had arranged to happen.
So Loke gave Hod an arrow tipped with the misteltoe, showed him where
to aim, and the arrow did fatally strike Balder's hart.

The story that caused Odin and fellows to REALLY get angry with Loke
involved Idunn's apples, if I remember my norse right. The gods needed
the apples to stay eternally young (or at least fit), and Loke did some

tricks to prevent the gods from getting their apples. Bad as the
deception,
framing of Hod and killing of Balder might be, the apple episode
threatened the very existence of the gods, which was a completely
different business than "mere" murder. Hence, a completely different
reaction.

Rune

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Rune Allnor wrote:
> > Jerry Avins wrote:
> >
> >>Rune Allnor wrote:
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >>
> >>>I first heard this story in school when I was about ten years old:
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >>
> >>>Of course, the story was not told in a science class.
> >>
> >>Is this story in a different "thread" from "All of my head but none of
> >>my neck"?
> >
> >
> > Hmmm.... I don't understand what you mean? I thought about writing this
> >
> > story in an earlier sub-thread, but I don't think I did. I am not all
> > that focused
> > these days, so I might have accidentially double-posted it within the
> > last
> > week or so.
>
> At one point, I think after killing Balder, Loki was sentenced to death
> by having his head cut off. Just as Odin couldn't go back on his word,
> so he couldn't deviate from it. Loki escaped by insisting that he lose
> "all of my head, but none of my neck,". Since that is impossible, the
> execution never took place.

According to Snorre Sturlason's "Edda" the imprisonment of Loke was a
revenge for Balder's death. I guess the details depend a bit on the
sources.
I have seen some versions that deviate significantly from Snorre, but
this
may have as much to do with "sanitizing" the violence out of the
stories,
as anything else.

Rune

axlq wrote:
> In article <doegmv$813$[email protected]>,
> Stan Pawlukiewicz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I'm an engineer.
>
>
> Hmm... I might have guessed. Another data point for the Salem
> Hypothesis.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_hypothesis
>
> -A
Maybe when you get out of school, but I've been on too many projects
designed by commitee.

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Donald wrote:
>
>> Jerry Avins wrote:
>>
>>> To me, you're clearly right. I accept "Everything happens according
>>> to the (valid) laws of physics" as a matter of faith*.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Does this mean:
>>
>> "I have faith, that the laws of physics are true"
>> or "I have faith, that someone has proven the laws of physics are true"
>>
>> One _could_ be a religon and the other _is_ science.
>>
>> donald
>
>
> Better would be to say that I believe that the laws of physics are in
> the same class as Peano's axioms: accepted without proof. Is mathematics
> a religion?

For some ... The Pythagoreans had certain mystical inclinations.
>
> Jerry

Stan Pawlukiewicz wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:
>
>> Donald wrote:
>>
>>> Jerry Avins wrote:
>>>
>>>> To me, you're clearly right. I accept "Everything happens according
>>>> to the (valid) laws of physics" as a matter of faith*.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Does this mean:
>>>
>>> "I have faith, that the laws of physics are true"
>>> or "I have faith, that someone has proven the laws of physics are true"
>>>
>>> One _could_ be a religon and the other _is_ science.
>>>
>>> donald
>>
>>
>>
>> Better would be to say that I believe that the laws of physics are in
>> the same class as Peano's axioms: accepted without proof. Is
>> mathematics a religion?
>
>
> For some ... The Pythagoreans had certain mystical inclinations.

Isn't that beside the point? If every discipline that is/was
incorporated into a religion is in itself called a religion, the term
would lose most of its meaning. Consider saturnalia; is *** a religion?
(Don't answer!)

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Stan Pawlukiewicz wrote:
>
>> Jerry Avins wrote:
>>
>>> Donald wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jerry Avins wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> To me, you're clearly right. I accept "Everything happens according
>>>>> to the (valid) laws of physics" as a matter of faith*.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does this mean:
>>>>
>>>> "I have faith, that the laws of physics are true"
>>>> or "I have faith, that someone has proven the laws of physics are true"
>>>>
>>>> One _could_ be a religon and the other _is_ science.
>>>>
>>>> donald
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Better would be to say that I believe that the laws of physics are in
>>> the same class as Peano's axioms: accepted without proof. Is
>>> mathematics a religion?
>>
>>
>>
>> For some ... The Pythagoreans had certain mystical inclinations.
>
>
> Isn't that beside the point? If every discipline that is/was
> incorporated into a religion is in itself called a religion, the term
> would lose most of its meaning. Consider saturnalia; is *** a religion?
> (Don't answer!)
>
> Jerry


Mathematics and *** are special. Other disciplines need to be taken on a
case by case basis.

Rune Allnor wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:
> > Rune Allnor wrote:
> > > Jerry Avins wrote:
> > >
> > >>Rune Allnor wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>I first heard this story in school when I was about ten years old:
> > >>
> > >> ...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>Of course, the story was not told in a science class.
> > >>
> > >>Is this story in a different "thread" from "All of my head but none of
> > >>my neck"?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hmmm.... I don't understand what you mean? I thought about writing this
> > >
> > > story in an earlier sub-thread, but I don't think I did. I am not all
> > > that focused
> > > these days, so I might have accidentially double-posted it within the
> > > last
> > > week or so.
> >
> > At one point, I think after killing Balder, Loki was sentenced to death
> > by having his head cut off. Just as Odin couldn't go back on his word,
> > so he couldn't deviate from it. Loki escaped by insisting that he lose
> > "all of my head, but none of my neck,". Since that is impossible, the
> > execution never took place.
>
> Ah, no, this is a different story.
>
> Loke did cause the death of Balder, the most handsome of Gods, by
> decieveing the blind god Hod to shoot an arrow at Balder after all
> living
> creatures had sworn not to harm Balder. All living creatures except for
>
> the misteltoe, that is, something that Loke had arranged to happen.
> So Loke gave Hod an arrow tipped with the misteltoe, showed him where
> to aim, and the arrow did fatally strike Balder's hart.
>
> The story that caused Odin and fellows to REALLY get angry with Loke
> involved Idunn's apples, if I remember my norse right. The gods needed
> the apples to stay eternally young (or at least fit), and Loke did some
>
> tricks to prevent the gods from getting their apples. Bad as the
> deception,
> framing of Hod and killing of Balder might be, the apple episode
> threatened the very existence of the gods, which was a completely
> different business than "mere" murder. Hence, a completely different
> reaction.
>
> Rune

The above is basically BS. I got that version from a children's version

of Edda. The correct version is in a different post.

Sorry.

Rune

Peter K. wrote:
> http://www.fred.net/tds/noodles/noodle.html
>
> There ain't nothing like the scientific method!
>
> Ciao,
>
> Peter K.

Heh, as I write this, google has registered 200+ posts in this thread,
a number that ought to diminish rapidly as a couple of the more
active posters have posted in a "no archive" mode.

Peter, you are a serious contender for the "Troll of the year 2005"
award...

Rune

"Rune Allnor" <[email protected]> writes:

> Peter, you are a serious contender for the "Troll of the year 2005"
> award...

:-)

Yes, it's quite amazing, isn't it? I really didn't think it was that
much of a troll... just an amusing side-piece to the other mentions of
the FSM mantra here on comp.dsp.

Ciao,

Peter K.

--
--
"And he sees the vision splendid
of the sunlit plains extended
And at night the wondrous glory of the everlasting stars."

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Rune Allnor wrote:
> > Jerry Avins wrote:
> >
> >>Rune Allnor wrote:
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >>
> >>>I first heard this story in school when I was about ten years old:
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >>
> >>>Of course, the story was not told in a science class.
> >>
> >>Is this story in a different "thread" from "All of my head but none of
> >>my neck"?
> >
> >
> > Hmmm.... I don't understand what you mean? I thought about writing this
> >
> > story in an earlier sub-thread, but I don't think I did. I am not all
> > that focused
> > these days, so I might have accidentially double-posted it within the
> > last
> > week or so.
>
> At one point, I think after killing Balder, Loki was sentenced to death
> by having his head cut off. Just as Odin couldn't go back on his word,
> so he couldn't deviate from it. Loki escaped by insisting that he lose
> "all of my head, but none of my neck,". Since that is impossible, the
> execution never took place.

Ah, what a literate christmas this has been.

I actually bought a copy of Snorre's "Edda", the 13th century
collection
of Norse myths, a few years ago. I even brought it on this year's
christmas
vacation, with the intention to read it while on the boat. I did not,
but have
done the last couple of days.

It turns out that Loke's "all the head but none of the neck" line was
the
result of a det he had with a dwarf. The bet was about who could make
the best gifts for Odin, Tor and Njård. The dwarf made the gold ring
Draupne, a ring that spawned eight gold rings of its own size every
ninth day, as well as Mjølner, the hammer Tor used when he hunted
trolls. Needless to say, Loke who had bet his head on being able to
bring
the better gifts, lost that bet with flying colors, so he had to come
up with
a way to keep his head and neck firly connected.

Both the story about Idunn's apples and the killing of Balder appears
in Edda. For some reason, it is not always easy to keep track of
any chronology in the myths. It also seems various editors have
been busy at one time or another; my edition of Edda skips some of
the more juicy details I know to be present in the originals.

Jerry, thanks for forcing me to actually read Edda. I am a bit
surprised
that somebody across the pond, with no obvious links to Scandinavia,
knows that much about the Norse mythology?

Rune

Rune Allnor wrote:

...

> Jerry, thanks for forcing me to actually read Edda. I am a bit
> surprised
> that somebody across the pond, with no obvious links to Scandinavia,
> knows that much about the Norse mythology?

As you noticed, my knowledge of the Edda is spotty and confused. Still,
I have read some of it (them?), and find a mix of mythology and of
archaeologically verified oral history. Sun stones taught me not to
dismiss narrative as mythology. (I too can locate the sun on a cloudy
day with the help of a piece of Iceland spar, now that I read of it and
connected the dots.)

Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology stood on a par in my high school.
Beowulf has a lot of Old Norse in its Old English. There is an old
saying, "Every dog will have its day." It is often misused to mean "All
things come to him who waits", so I use the moral from the (translated)
Edda, "Even the black dog will have its day,"* which I see as entirely
different. I suppose I've been eddafied. :-)


Jerry
__________________________________
* A year ago last August, I wrote:
"There's a common saying in English, "Every dog will have its day",
taken to mean that at least fleeting success will come to the patient. I
don't know its origin, but I suspect it to be a corruption of the line
in the Edda, "Even the black dog will have its day", which has a very
different meaning. The black dog had been a foundling pup which, when
grown, didn't guard and didn't hunt. In short, companionable but
useless. The household staff wanted to get rid of it, but the chief
responded with the quoted line. On one adventure, the black dog saved
the chief's life at the cost of its own. "Even the black dog will have
its day" comes to mind whenever I'm encouraged to discard a piece of
junk." I don't remember why "patient".
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote:
> Rune Allnor wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Jerry, thanks for forcing me to actually read Edda. I am a bit
> > surprised
> > that somebody across the pond, with no obvious links to Scandinavia,
> > knows that much about the Norse mythology?
>
> As you noticed, my knowledge of the Edda is spotty and confused.

As is mine...

>Still,
> I have read some of it (them?),

There are, apparently, two Eddas. Snorre's is the younger and contains
most of the written remains of the Norse mythology. The prologue was
quite
interesting. Snorre wrote after christianity was introduced to
Scandinavia,
and had to be very careful about not upsetting the new christian
regime.
So he told the story about gods and trolls as if they were the stories
of
ancient emigrants from Troy, no less. Odin, Tor and chums were
linked to the Greek Preamos and (Aga?)Memnon.

Which, of course, inspired the late maverick "archaeologist" Thor
Heyerdal,
famous for sailing across the pacific on a balsa raft, to go to Asia
Minor
to "prove" Snorre right.

There is, apparently, and older Edda. I don't know if any of it
is preserved, or if it is known only indirectly through Snorre, who
cites it. The edition I just read (130 pages long) contains a ~10 page
resume of what apparently is the saga of the Niebelungen ring,
made (in)famous by the operas of Wagner. So yes, thee seems
to be some connection to continental Europe other than Denmark.

> and find a mix of mythology and of
> archaeologically verified oral history.

That's part of the fun. The Norse sagas are fun adventures that the
kids like. The gods are very human-like, they have their tempers,
their jealousy, their moods; half the time they fight each others
as much as anybody else. And then they have their "superpowers",
Tor's hammer being the most famous.

These things are very fun to read.

> Sun stones taught me not to
> dismiss narrative as mythology. (I too can locate the sun on a cloudy
> day with the help of a piece of Iceland spar, now that I read of it and
> connected the dots.)
>
> Greek, Roman, and Norse mythology stood on a par in my high school.
> Beowulf has a lot of Old Norse in its Old English.

Language is everything. I found a reprint of a 1974 vintage collection
of the more famous poems and sagas. It was translated to a modern
Norwegian, and was all but unreadable. The old translations, made
during the national romantic area of the 19th century, had preserved
more of that old Norse rythm that presumably only can be sensed in
the present day Icelandic language.

> There is an old
> saying, "Every dog will have its day." It is often misused to mean "All
> things come to him who waits", so I use the moral from the (translated)
> Edda, "Even the black dog will have its day,"* which I see as entirely
> different. I suppose I've been eddafied. :-)

I don't recognize that one. But then, there have been at least one
editor
at work with the book I just read. According to the preface, LOTS have
been removed.

Rune

> Jerry
> __________________________________
> * A year ago last August, I wrote:
> "There's a common saying in English, "Every dog will have its day",
> taken to mean that at least fleeting success will come to the patient. I
> don't know its origin, but I suspect it to be a corruption of the line
> in the Edda, "Even the black dog will have its day", which has a very
> different meaning. The black dog had been a foundling pup which, when
> grown, didn't guard and didn't hunt. In short, companionable but
> useless. The household staff wanted to get rid of it, but the chief
> responded with the quoted line. On one adventure, the black dog saved
> the chief's life at the cost of its own. "Even the black dog will have
> its day" comes to mind whenever I'm encouraged to discard a piece of
> junk." I don't remember why "patient".

> --
> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins <[email protected]> writes:

> I suppose I've been eddafied. :-)

Groan. :-) Not quite the same as edda-u-cated.

Ciao,

Peter K.

--
"And he sees the vision splendid
of the sunlit plains extended
And at night the wondrous glory of the everlasting stars."