FPGA Central

I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are
some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed
in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically
the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.

What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I
know it...

There is an unwritten rule on comp.dsp that we do not do peoples'
homework for them. Unfortunately, blatant homework questions are
quite common here.

For someone who has done their homework, or at least attempted it, and
who still needs guidance, you'll find that the folks on comp.dsp are
very accommodating.

Don't forget all the mid level folks who just lurk =/

joncox wrote:

> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are
> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed
> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically
> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I
> know it...
>

1. Before asking a 2+2=4 question, check with google and wikipedia. Or
better get a basic book such as "Scientist and Engineer guide.." or
"Understanding DSP..."

2. Self appointed netcops are not welcome regardless of their posture
and credentials.

3. Students do their homework themselves.

4. Learn the basics before talking about the complicated things.

....and everyone here will be eager to help.


Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
http://www.abvolt.com

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 08:24:40 -0600, joncox wrote:

> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there
> are some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get
> pointed in the right direction to start their learning process. However,
> typically the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
>
> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering
> as I know it...

I hope it's not "typically", although it certainly happens.

Citing some examples might help. If I'm to be faulted in this, its when
someone asks an apparently simple question that would require a year's
background to understand -- in those cases I suppose the answer would be
that, plus pointers to books or titles of university courses.

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

x-no-archive:

> > I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are
> > some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed
> > in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically
> > the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
> > What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
> > this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
> > leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I
> > know it...
>

you think it is bad here? ,,,checkout alt.hvac sometime...

Mark

"joncox" <[email protected]> writes:

> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are
> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed
> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically
> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
>
> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I
> know it...

A civil response is always the appropriate response. I confess that I
sometimes violate my own advice in this regard.

However, what do you do when, e.g., a person lacking even algebra comes
to the group and asks what the Fourier transform is, or the meaning of
the Wiener-Khinchine theorem? Some questions are just so far beyond the
asker's ability to understand that almost any attempt to answer them
would be fruitless.

In such cases I would hope that the folks here (including me) try to
give a civil response with content indicating what knowledge should be
gained if they really want to pursue the answer to their question.

We all had to start somewhere, and none of us here should forget that.
--
% Randy Yates % "My Shangri-la has gone away, fading like
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % the Beatles on 'Hey Jude'"
%%% 919-577-9882 %
%%%% <[email protected]> % 'Shangri-La', *A New World Record*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

Randy Yates wrote:
> "joncox" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are
>> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed
>> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically
>> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
>>
>> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
>> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
>> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I
>> know it...
>
> A civil response is always the appropriate response. I confess that I
> sometimes violate my own advice in this regard.
>
> However, what do you do when, e.g., a person lacking even algebra comes
> to the group and asks what the Fourier transform is, or the meaning of
> the Wiener-Khinchine theorem? Some questions are just so far beyond the
> asker's ability to understand that almost any attempt to answer them
> would be fruitless.
>
> In such cases I would hope that the folks here (including me) try to
> give a civil response with content indicating what knowledge should be
> gained if they really want to pursue the answer to their question.
>
> We all had to start somewhere, and none of us here should forget that.

The fault for some of those questions lies with the questioner's
teachers. Just today, we had this (paraphrasing: "I have been assigned
to locate the source of a sound, angle and distance, using Matlab and
two microphones. I don't know much about acoustics. Please help."

The thread is " Sound Localization Matlab, Please Help!"

I don't usually do homework, but I felt compelled to do some of the
teacher's job in this instance.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Feb 18, 3:24*am, "joncox" <jon...@mit.edu> wrote:
> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are
> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed
> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically
> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
>
> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering asI
> know it...

Piss off!

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:54:55 -0500, Jerry Avins wrote:

> Randy Yates wrote:
>> "joncox" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there
>>> are some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get
>>> pointed in the right direction to start their learning process.
>>> However, typically the response they get is rude, sarcastic and
>>> unhelpful.
>>>
>>> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching?
>>> Is this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't
>>> know, leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't
>>> engineering as I know it...
>>
>> A civil response is always the appropriate response. I confess that I
>> sometimes violate my own advice in this regard.
>>
>> However, what do you do when, e.g., a person lacking even algebra comes
>> to the group and asks what the Fourier transform is, or the meaning of
>> the Wiener-Khinchine theorem? Some questions are just so far beyond the
>> asker's ability to understand that almost any attempt to answer them
>> would be fruitless.
>>
>> In such cases I would hope that the folks here (including me) try to
>> give a civil response with content indicating what knowledge should be
>> gained if they really want to pursue the answer to their question.
>>
>> We all had to start somewhere, and none of us here should forget that.
>
> The fault for some of those questions lies with the questioner's
> teachers. Just today, we had this (paraphrasing: "I have been assigned
> to locate the source of a sound, angle and distance, using Matlab and
> two microphones. I don't know much about acoustics. Please help."
>
> The thread is " Sound Localization Matlab, Please Help!"
>
> I don't usually do homework, but I felt compelled to do some of the
> teacher's job in this instance.
>
> Jerry

OTOH, the kid says it's for a thesis, which implies some independent
research.

I think I'll go say something (very mildly) snarky about engineering
schools and libraries -- you know, those collections of odd information
storage devices that involve changing the contrast ratio of very thin
sheets of plant fiber in such a way that one can read them without
recourse to a computer?

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Jerry Avins <[email protected]> writes:

> Randy Yates wrote:
>> "joncox" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are
>>> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed
>>> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically
>>> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
>>>
>>> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
>>> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
>>> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I
>>> know it...
>>
>> A civil response is always the appropriate response. I confess that
>> I sometimes violate my own advice in this regard.
>>
>> However, what do you do when, e.g., a person lacking even algebra comes
>> to the group and asks what the Fourier transform is, or the meaning of
>> the Wiener-Khinchine theorem? Some questions are just so far beyond the
>> asker's ability to understand that almost any attempt to answer them
>> would be fruitless.
>>
>> In such cases I would hope that the folks here (including me) try to
>> give a civil response with content indicating what knowledge should be
>> gained if they really want to pursue the answer to their question.
>>
>> We all had to start somewhere, and none of us here should forget that.
>
> The fault for some of those questions lies with the questioner's
> teachers. Just today, we had this (paraphrasing: "I have been assigned
> to locate the source of a sound, angle and distance, using Matlab and
> two microphones. I don't know much about acoustics. Please help."
>
> The thread is " Sound Localization Matlab, Please Help!"
>
> I don't usually do homework, but I felt compelled to do some of the
> teacher's job in this instance.

Good point, Jerry.

I'm developing a hatred for my wife's community college math
department policy to allow calculators in the early remedial
math classes (like pre-algebra and early algebra). She has a
problem with signed arithemtic (like "-1(x - 1)" when x = -3)
and when I insist that the problem is that she's leaning on
the calculator as a crutch instead of learning the properties
of signed arithmetic, she tells me everyone else is doing it.

Is it her fault? Partially. But it's mainly the idiots in the
administration that formed this policy.
--
% Randy Yates % "Watching all the days go by...
%% Fuquay-Varina, NC % Who are you and who am I?"
%%% 919-577-9882 % 'Mission (A World Record)',
%%%% <[email protected]> % *A New World Record*, ELO
http://www.digitalsignallabs.com

Randy Yates wrote:
> Jerry Avins <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Randy Yates wrote:

...

> I'm developing a hatred for my wife's community college math
> department policy to allow calculators in the early remedial
> math classes (like pre-algebra and early algebra). She has a
> problem with signed arithemtic (like "-1(x - 1)" when x = -3)
> and when I insist that the problem is that she's leaning on
> the calculator as a crutch instead of learning the properties
> of signed arithmetic, she tells me everyone else is doing it.
>
> Is it her fault? Partially. But it's mainly the idiots in the
> administration that formed this policy.

I've encountered this several times. In my experience, it's not so much
a matter of signed arithmetic /per se/, but difficulty with making
substitutions. It shows up with the chain rule as well. Maybe that's a
fruitful direction to approach it from with your wife.

Math is one of the harder subjects to teach. Having once learned it,
most people lose the ability to understand how an approach might not be
obvious to everyone who encounters the need to use it.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On 17 Feb, 15:24, "joncox" <jon...@mit.edu> wrote:
> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are
> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed
> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically
> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
>
> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I
> know it...

It has to do with the attitude of the people who ask. I might have
responded on a few occasions that they should talk to supervisors or
bosses. On these occasions the questions have been concerned with
fundamental decisions regarding projects of some size, and I got the
impression - right or wrong - that the posters wanted quick answers
to have some progress to show their supervisors. Picking other
people's
brains and passing the result on as your own work is not
"professionalism"
or "engineering", in my book. Nor is not learning the tools of your
trade.

As always, my views are controversial, but it is my firm belief that
people who are assigned tasks in complicated projects should ask
their supervisors for help and guidance; not strangers in a USENET
group.

Rune

Greg Berchin <[email protected]> wrote:

>There is an unwritten rule on comp.dsp that we do not do peoples'
>homework for them. Unfortunately, blatant homework questions are
>quite common here.

I am not a real adherent to this rule. For one thing, people
are not all that sentient about spotting homework problems.

Once a couple years ago, I asked a combinatorics problem on
sci.math . I took combinatorics 25 years ago in college, and
was rusty on it. My current specialties are DSP and chip design
and stuff like that, and a somewhat abstract mathematics issue
having to do with the law of the excluded middle was stumping me.
What happened was, the posters on the group there declared
that I was asking a homework problem and decided not to answer it.
It was not so much that I did not get an answer; it was the
kneejerk bombastic verbiage about how I was wrong to ask the question
that seemed real silly to me.

My philosophy is, if it's something I can answer and I have
the time to do so, I will. Hopefully if I am stuck on a problem
sometime, someone might provide an answer to me.

I am a little less likely to reply if it seems like a homework
assignment, or if the poster seems to have created an email
account and pseudonym just to ask the question, but I will
not rule out replying.

Steve

Randy Yates wrote:
(snip)

> I'm developing a hatred for my wife's community college math
> department policy to allow calculators in the early remedial
> math classes (like pre-algebra and early algebra). She has a
> problem with signed arithemtic (like "-1(x - 1)" when x = -3)
> and when I insist that the problem is that she's leaning on
> the calculator as a crutch instead of learning the properties
> of signed arithmetic, she tells me everyone else is doing it.

> Is it her fault? Partially. But it's mainly the idiots in the
> administration that formed this policy.

At some point it is not local, but global (or at least national).

When I took the SAT many years ago calculators were not allowed,
but they are now. I believe that the problems have adapted such
that they don't depend so much on numerical ability. If the
problems are written carefully, you can test for the ability
to evaluate -1*(x-1) without the ability to use the calculator
as a crutch. Even so, sign errors are easy to make even for
experienced scientists. Practice helps a lot, and practicing
without the calculator even more.

There is now a "question of the day" service from ETS that
will e-mail one SAT question to you every day. It is a good
way to keep in practice even if you don't have to take one
anytime soon.

-- glen

Greg Berchin wrote:

> There is an unwritten rule on comp.dsp that we do not do peoples'
> homework for them. Unfortunately, blatant homework questions are
> quite common here.

Some people will answer them. Others will generate a fake
answer that may or may not eventually result in the right answer.

Sometimes what looks like a homework problem is from someone
who hasn't done that type of problem for many years and needs
a quick reminder. It isn't always easy to tell.

> For someone who has done their homework, or at least attempted it, and
> who still needs guidance, you'll find that the folks on comp.dsp are
> very accommodating.

On the average, I believe so. There are, as usually, people on both
sides of average.

-- glen

joncox wrote:

> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are
> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get pointed
> in the right direction to start their learning process. However, typically
> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.

There are also beginners with homework due in one hour who just
want the answer, not how to get the answer. (Some even give a time
requirement for the answer.)

> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I
> know it...

Given the right question, it is usual to get more than is needed
for the answer.

-- glen

Jerry Avins wrote:

> Randy Yates wrote:
>
>> "joncox" <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed
>>> there are
>>> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get
>>> pointed
>>> in the right direction to start their learning process. However,
>>> typically
>>> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
>>> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
>>> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
>>> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't
>>> engineering as I
>>> know it...
>>
>>
>> A civil response is always the appropriate response. I confess that I
>> sometimes violate my own advice in this regard.
>> However, what do you do when, e.g., a person lacking even algebra comes
>> to the group and asks what the Fourier transform is, or the meaning of
>> the Wiener-Khinchine theorem? Some questions are just so far beyond the
>> asker's ability to understand that almost any attempt to answer them
>> would be fruitless.
>>
>> In such cases I would hope that the folks here (including me) try to
>> give a civil response with content indicating what knowledge should be
>> gained if they really want to pursue the answer to their question.
>> We all had to start somewhere, and none of us here should forget that.
>
>
> The fault for some of those questions lies with the questioner's
> teachers. Just today, we had this (paraphrasing: "I have been assigned
> to locate the source of a sound, angle and distance, using Matlab and
> two microphones. I don't know much about acoustics. Please help."
>
> The thread is " Sound Localization Matlab, Please Help!"
>
> I don't usually do homework, but I felt compelled to do some of the
> teacher's job in this instance.
>
> Jerry

yeah but BUT *BUT*

In THAT case the OP
stated it was HOMEWORK
indicated what he had done on his own
(whether on not adequate is meaningless)
asked for *DIRECTION* _NOT_ for "the answer"

>
>joncox wrote:
>
>> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there
are
>> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get
pointed
>> in the right direction to start their learning process. However,
typically
>> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
>> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching?
Is
>> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't
know,
>> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering
as I
>> know it...
>>
>
>1. Before asking a 2+2=4 question, check with google and wikipedia. Or
>better get a basic book such as "Scientist and Engineer guide.." or
>"Understanding DSP..."

Some people might come here with no engineering background.
Especially those depend on books to learn, but you can't ask a book
if you don't understand something, so you ask here.
I don't see a reason to complain about question from people with
obvious knowledge gaps and
I can't see a reason to complain about any reactions from the group.
Usually I see helpful answers.

>2. Self appointed netcops are not welcome regardless of their posture
>and credentials.
>
>3. Students do their homework themselves.

An attitude I respect. I personally don't care why somebody wants
to know something. If it is to do his/her homework right, curiousity,
or to do his job. I didn't have classes in engineering and just
some very rudimentary lessons in DSP (hope my respected DSP teacher
doesn't read this, it wasn't his fault, he teaches DSP to composers...)
That's why I maybe do not share this strict aversion against
homework questions.

Bjoern

joncox wrote:

> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed there are
> some beginners asking simple questions

WRONG adjective >>>> not "simple", but "simplistic"

> with only the desire to get pointed
> in the right direction to start their learning process.

Some - yes
Many - *NO*

> However, typically the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.

I would argue with "typically".
There is a specific infantile sarcastic individual in this group.
HOWEVER, if poster demonstrates desire to learn, majority of group will
give GUIDANCE. Now "guidance" (may) OR (may not) be an _explicit answer.

>
> What is with this? How can we as engineers be anti-learning/teaching? Is
> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't engineering as I
> know it...
>
>

This group is *PRO*education

On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:00:06 +0000, Steve Pope wrote:

> Greg Berchin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>There is an unwritten rule on comp.dsp that we do not do peoples'
>>homework for them. Unfortunately, blatant homework questions are quite
>>common here.
>
> I am not a real adherent to this rule. For one thing, people are not
> all that sentient about spotting homework problems.
>
> Once a couple years ago, I asked a combinatorics problem on sci.math .
> I took combinatorics 25 years ago in college, and was rusty on it. My
> current specialties are DSP and chip design and stuff like that, and a
> somewhat abstract mathematics issue having to do with the law of the
> excluded middle was stumping me. What happened was, the posters on the
> group there declared that I was asking a homework problem and decided
> not to answer it. It was not so much that I did not get an answer; it
> was the kneejerk bombastic verbiage about how I was wrong to ask the
> question that seemed real silly to me.
>
> My philosophy is, if it's something I can answer and I have the time to
> do so, I will. Hopefully if I am stuck on a problem sometime, someone
> might provide an answer to me.
>
> I am a little less likely to reply if it seems like a homework
> assignment, or if the poster seems to have created an email account and
> pseudonym just to ask the question, but I will not rule out replying.
>
> Steve

There's a difference, though, between _helping_ someone with their
homework, and _doing_ someone's homework. When someone really seems to
want the group to cough up answers for tomorrow's assignment (or today's
take-home test), then they deserve short shrift. If they're teaching
themselves, or if the crew that's supposed to be helping them is falling
down on the job -- then I try to help.

--
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Richard Owlett wrote:
> Jerry Avins wrote:
>
>> Randy Yates wrote:
>>
>>> "joncox" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>> I have a question regarding the culture of this group. I noticed
>>>> there are
>>>> some beginners asking simple questions with only the desire to get
>>>> pointed
>>>> in the right direction to start their learning process. However,
>>>> typically
>>>> the response they get is rude, sarcastic and unhelpful.
>>>> What is with this? How can we as engineers be
>>>> anti-learning/teaching? Is
>>>> this the legal profession? The attitude seems to be "if you don't know,
>>>> leave it to the professionals." I don't get it. This isn't
>>>> engineering as I
>>>> know it...
>>>
>>>
>>> A civil response is always the appropriate response. I confess that I
>>> sometimes violate my own advice in this regard.
>>> However, what do you do when, e.g., a person lacking even algebra comes
>>> to the group and asks what the Fourier transform is, or the meaning of
>>> the Wiener-Khinchine theorem? Some questions are just so far beyond the
>>> asker's ability to understand that almost any attempt to answer them
>>> would be fruitless.
>>>
>>> In such cases I would hope that the folks here (including me) try to
>>> give a civil response with content indicating what knowledge should be
>>> gained if they really want to pursue the answer to their question.
>>> We all had to start somewhere, and none of us here should forget that.
>>
>>
>> The fault for some of those questions lies with the questioner's
>> teachers. Just today, we had this (paraphrasing: "I have been assigned
>> to locate the source of a sound, angle and distance, using Matlab and
>> two microphones. I don't know much about acoustics. Please help."
>>
>> The thread is " Sound Localization Matlab, Please Help!"
>>
>> I don't usually do homework, but I felt compelled to do some of the
>> teacher's job in this instance.
>>
>> Jerry
>
> yeah but BUT *BUT*
>
> In THAT case the OP
> stated it was HOMEWORK
> indicated what he had done on his own
> (whether on not adequate is meaningless)
> asked for *DIRECTION* _NOT_ for "the answer"

Do you think my reply to him was inappropriate?

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On 2009-02-17, Randy Yates <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I'm developing a hatred for my wife's community college math
> department policy to allow calculators in the early remedial
> math classes

I just saw a "math" lesson on a local educational cable access station
using calculators. The narrator was leading the students in the use of
graphing calculators to find the properties of certain basic operations
like sqrt. The idea seemed to be to graph a bunch of variations (eg
sqrt(x)*sqrt(x)) and sketch the results and use those to infer the
properties of sqrt. They were treating the calculator like an artifact
and doing "science experiments" to probe its mysteries.

--
Ben Jackson AD7GD
<[email protected]>
http://www.ben.com/

On Feb 17, 5:07*pm, Ben Jackson <b...@ben.com> wrote:
> On 2009-02-17, Randy Yates <ya...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'm developing a hatred for my wife's community college math
> > department policy to allow calculators in the early remedial
> > math classes
>
> I just saw a "math" lesson on a local educational cable access station
> using calculators. *The narrator was leading the students in the use of
> graphing calculators to find the properties of certain basic operations
> like sqrt. *The idea seemed to be to graph a bunch of variations (eg
> sqrt(x)*sqrt(x)) and sketch the results and use those to infer the
> properties of sqrt. *They were treating the calculator like an artifact
> and doing "science experiments" to probe its mysteries.
>
> --
> Ben Jackson AD7GD
> <b...@ben.com>http://www.ben.com/

this thread opens some interesting questions that I had started to ask
a while back but the discussion never got very far...

we all seem to agree that we should not GIVE out home work answers...
we all seem to agree that it is OK to help students who want to learn
something...

I'm OK with both of those...

it starts to get into an interesting area when someone who seems to be
working professionally on a subject that I am also working on
professionally. I "want" to help this person but am I hurting my
company? Am I hurting myself? At some level we are in
competition...

The guys at alt.hvac seem to have a keen awareness of this. They are
mercyless when a "homeowner' gets on and asks for help to fix their
own furnace. Judging by the responses these guys see helping
homeowners as taking food directly out of their own kid's mouths...

While I do not condone rude responses, with the outflow of jobs from
the US, they do seem to have a point that applies here.

DISCUSS.

Mark

On 17 Feb, 23:48, makol...@yahoo.com wrote:

> it starts to get into an interesting area when someone who seems to be
> working professionally on *a subject that I am also working on
> professionally. *I "want" to help this person but am I hurting my
> company? * Am I hurting myself? *At some level we are in
> competition...

From my POV, this is not a relevant problem at all. The tiny
fraction that goes on on comp.dsp which I can have an informed
opinion about, is generally on the beginning / intermediate
educational level. Nowhere near anything professionally or
commercially decisive. So lots of the efforts are about getting
students on to the right track first of all, and warn about
more or less obvious pitfalls later.

As far as I am concerned, both efforts are necessary on the
DSP community level in order to train / condition / manipulate
decision-makers that have a clue about what DSP really is, and
not just remain layfolk who have seen one sci-fi too many. In my
field of work, which deals with data analysis, the competitive
moves are strategic choises about what tasks to solve and what
resources to allocate, rather than specific questions about
pieces of technology or algorithms.

To be blunt, data analysis by DSP is all about quantitative
characterizations of data, while layfolk and amateurs think
it is about qualitative classifications of data. Deceptively
similar words, but getting it right makes all the difference
in the world. So I don't really care if others obtain some
competitive advantage from my input, if they make their
decisions based on science fact rather than science fiction.

But of course, I have very specific opinions - which I keep
to myself - about how to go about the stuff I see in my day
job. And I don't tell too many details about how to implement
whatever tricks I might have come across. Or why they are
worth the efforts.

Rune