FPGA Central

Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?


Bret Cahill

On 20 Oct, 09:42, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. *Is anything else
> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>
> Bret Cahill

High end digital HD TV - $2,000
Medical ultrasound - $20,000
MRI - $20,000,000

These two are not consumer goods.
>Medical ultrasound - $20,000
>MRI - $20,000,000
>

This is a bit closer to what Bret asked of:
Sigma SD14 digital single-lens reflex camera. It costs about 700 USD a
amazon.com and as far as I know it uses ADSP-BF561 for image processing.
I guess that there are much more examples in the field of embedde
multimedia systems.

--
Alexander

> > Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. *Is anything else
> > using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>
> > Bret Cahill
>
> High end digital HD TV - $2,000
> Medical ultrasound - $20,000
> MRI - $20,000,000

DSP isn't responsible for most of those costs.


Bret Cahill

Chris Bore wrote:
>
> On 20 Oct, 09:42, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
> > Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
> > using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
> >
> > Bret Cahill
>
> High end digital HD TV - $2,000
> Medical ultrasound - $20,000
> MRI - $20,000,000


Microdyne RCB-2000 telemetry reciever - $80,000


--
The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!

Bret Cahill wrote:
> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?

Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300 bicycle?

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:43:30 -0400
Jerry Avins <[email protected]> wrote:

> Bret Cahill wrote:
> > Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
> > using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>
> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300
> bicycle?
>
> Jerry

Only insofar as two years from now, replacing your $300 bicycle won't
yet have crossed your mind.

--
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology
Email address is currently out of order

Rob Gaddi wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:43:30 -0400
> Jerry Avins <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Bret Cahill wrote:
>>> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
>>> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300
>> bicycle?
>>
>> Jerry
>
> Only insofar as two years from now, replacing your $300 bicycle won't
> yet have crossed your mind.

You must be right. I still have the $96.50 bicycle I got in 1947.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Oct 20, 10:21*am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:

> > High end digital HD TV - $2,000
> > Medical ultrasound - $20,000
> > MRI - $20,000,000
>
> DSP isn't responsible for most of those costs.

Welcome to engineering! DSP is used when it is less costly
than the alternatives; it is a cost savings to use a DSP filter
rather than a tuned seven-pole wundernetwork. DSP
is responsible, in a way, for the cost difference in HDTV using
coupled vanadium tuning forks and HDTV with DSP, that actually
does show up on the store shelves. Alas, there ISN"T
any vanadium-tuning-fork price data easily available for
this comparison.

> > Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. *Is anything else
> > using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>
> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300 bicycle?

The first derivative is certainly different.


Bret Cahill

On Oct 20, 2:55*pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
> Rob Gaddi wrote:
> > On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:43:30 -0400
> > Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> >> Bret Cahill wrote:
> >>> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. *Is anything else
> >>> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
> >> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300
> >> bicycle?
>
> >> Jerry
>
> > Only insofar as two years from now, replacing your $300 bicycle won't
> > yet have crossed your mind.
>
> You must be right. I still have the $96.50 bicycle I got in 1947.
>
> Jerry
> --


How much does it weigh?

Clay

>> > Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. =A0Is anything else
>> > using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>>
>> > Bret Cahill
>>
>> High end digital HD TV - $2,000
>> Medical ultrasound - $20,000
>> MRI - $20,000,000
>
>DSP isn't responsible for most of those costs.
>
DSP isn't responsible for most of the costs in any product I know outsid
the defence sector. I certainly doesn't account for much of your $30
hearing aid.

Steve

Clay wrote:
> On Oct 20, 2:55 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>> Rob Gaddi wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:43:30 -0400
>>> Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>> Bret Cahill wrote:
>>>>> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
>>>>> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>>>> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300
>>>> bicycle?
>>>> Jerry
>>> Only insofar as two years from now, replacing your $300 bicycle won't
>>> yet have crossed your mind.
>> You must be right. I still have the $96.50 bicycle I got in 1947.
>>
>> Jerry
>> --
>
>
> How much does it weigh?

28 pounds with fenders, carrier, and kick stand. Oh, yes, also the
generator and headlight and the "suitable warning device" that a
policeman made me install when, three mornings running, the same woman
ignored my stentorian warnings. Considering that I weigh about 180
pounds, ten pounds more or less makes little difference. (It's an
avinized Raleigh Lenton Clubman.)

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

> > > High end digital HD TV - $2,000
> > > Medical ultrasound - $20,000
> > > MRI - $20,000,000
>
> > DSP isn't responsible for most of those costs.
>
> Welcome to engineering! *DSP is used when it is less costly
> than the alternatives; it is a cost savings to use a DSP filter
> rather than a tuned seven-pole wundernetwork. * DSP
> is responsible, in a way, for the cost difference in HDTV using
> coupled vanadium tuning forks and HDTV with DSP, that actually
> does show up on the store shelves. *Alas, there ISN"T
> any vanadium-tuning-fork price data easily available for
> this comparison.

DSP must be commonplace in _some_ low end low priced consumer items,
however well hidden.


Bret Cahill

Bret Cahill wrote:
>>>> High end digital HD TV - $2,000
>>>> Medical ultrasound - $20,000
>>>> MRI - $20,000,000
>>> DSP isn't responsible for most of those costs.
>> Welcome to engineering! DSP is used when it is less costly
>> than the alternatives; it is a cost savings to use a DSP filter
>> rather than a tuned seven-pole wundernetwork. DSP
>> is responsible, in a way, for the cost difference in HDTV using
>> coupled vanadium tuning forks and HDTV with DSP, that actually
>> does show up on the store shelves. Alas, there ISN"T
>> any vanadium-tuning-fork price data easily available for
>> this comparison.
>
> DSP must be commonplace in _some_ low end low priced consumer items,
> however well hidden.

A $60 cordless phone has at least two.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On 20 Okt., 23:36, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
> Clay wrote:
> > On Oct 20, 2:55 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
> >> Rob Gaddi wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:43:30 -0400
> >>> Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
> >>>> Bret Cahill wrote:
> >>>>> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. *Is anything else
> >>>>> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
> >>>> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300
> >>>> bicycle?
> >>>> Jerry
> >>> Only insofar as two years from now, replacing your $300 bicycle won't
> >>> yet have crossed your mind.
> >> You must be right. I still have the $96.50 bicycle I got in 1947.
>
> >> Jerry
> >> --
>
> > How much does it weigh?
>
> 28 pounds with fenders, carrier, and kick stand. Oh, yes, also the
> generator and headlight and the "suitable warning device" that a
> policeman made me install when, three mornings running, the same woman
> ignored my stentorian warnings. Considering that I weigh about 180
> pounds, ten pounds more or less makes little difference. (It's an
> avinized Raleigh Lenton Clubman.)
>
> Jerry

reminds me of last years tv from tour de france, two of the
commentators
rode up one of the mountain stages to show the route. one of the
commentators
has been in the Tour several times as a rider commented that it was
harder than
he remembered, but he also had about 20 more water bottles to drag up
hill

UCI sets a minium weight of around 15 pound for a bike

-Lasse

On 10/20/2009 3:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On 20 Okt., 23:36, Jerry Avins<j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>> Clay wrote:
>>> On Oct 20, 2:55 pm, Jerry Avins<j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>> Rob Gaddi wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:43:30 -0400
>>>>> Jerry Avins<j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Bret Cahill wrote:
>>>>>>> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
>>>>>>> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>>>>>> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300
>>>>>> bicycle?
>>>>>> Jerry
>>>>> Only insofar as two years from now, replacing your $300 bicycle won't
>>>>> yet have crossed your mind.
>>>> You must be right. I still have the $96.50 bicycle I got in 1947.
>>>> Jerry
>>>> --
>>> How much does it weigh?
>> 28 pounds with fenders, carrier, and kick stand. Oh, yes, also the
>> generator and headlight and the "suitable warning device" that a
>> policeman made me install when, three mornings running, the same woman
>> ignored my stentorian warnings. Considering that I weigh about 180
>> pounds, ten pounds more or less makes little difference. (It's an
>> avinized Raleigh Lenton Clubman.)
>>
>> Jerry
>
> reminds me of last years tv from tour de france, two of the
> commentators
> rode up one of the mountain stages to show the route. one of the
> commentators
> has been in the Tour several times as a rider commented that it was
> harder than
> he remembered, but he also had about 20 more water bottles to drag up
> hill
>
> UCI sets a minium weight of around 15 pound for a bike
>
> -Lasse

Holy crap, there's Lasse again! And we were just talking about the
black list, too...

--
Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms
Abineau Communications
http://www.abineau.com

On 10/20/2009 11:43 AM, Jerry Avins wrote:
> Bret Cahill wrote:
>> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
>> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>
> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300 bicycle?
>
> Jerry

But isn't the on-topic question which one has more cost from DSP?

--
Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms
Abineau Communications
http://www.abineau.com

On 10/20/2009 2:36 PM, Jerry Avins wrote:
> Clay wrote:
>> On Oct 20, 2:55 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>> Rob Gaddi wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:43:30 -0400
>>>> Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>> Bret Cahill wrote:
>>>>>> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
>>>>>> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>>>>> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300
>>>>> bicycle?
>>>>> Jerry
>>>> Only insofar as two years from now, replacing your $300 bicycle won't
>>>> yet have crossed your mind.
>>> You must be right. I still have the $96.50 bicycle I got in 1947.
>>>
>>> Jerry
>>> --
>>
>>
>> How much does it weigh?
>
> 28 pounds with fenders, carrier, and kick stand. Oh, yes, also the
> generator and headlight and the "suitable warning device" that a
> policeman made me install when, three mornings running, the same woman
> ignored my stentorian warnings. Considering that I weigh about 180
> pounds, ten pounds more or less makes little difference. (It's an
> avinized Raleigh Lenton Clubman.)
>
> Jerry

Avinized? I'll have to remember that term.

--
Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms
Abineau Communications
http://www.abineau.com

On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:19:36 -0400, Jerry Avins wrote:

>> DSP must be commonplace in _some_ low end low priced consumer items,
>> however well hidden.
>
> A $60 cordless phone has at least two.

The least expensive (GSM) mobile phone (whatever that is: can't be much,
they give them away for "free") has about as much compute grunt as a
Cray-1 (if you ignore the differerence in precision and size of the
working data set).

My not all that expensive, but not bottom-of-the-line phone is at least
100 times more powerful than my first graphical Unix workstation in
almost every dimension (apart from screen resolution), and still runs
Unix, sort-of. It's phone-ness is kind of an ancilliary function...

The least expensive MP3 player (within epsilon of $0) does a reasonable
amount of DSP, although that's usually in an ASIC rather than a
programmable processor, for battery-life reasons.

The only "expensive" consumer items that I can think of that have
identifiable DSP functionality are A/V receivers, TVs and cars.

--
Andrew

[email protected] wrote:
> On 20 Okt., 23:36, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>> Clay wrote:
>>> On Oct 20, 2:55 pm, Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>> Rob Gaddi wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2009 14:43:30 -0400
>>>>> Jerry Avins <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
>>>>>> Bret Cahill wrote:
>>>>>>> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
>>>>>>> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>>>>>> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300
>>>>>> bicycle?
>>>>>> Jerry
>>>>> Only insofar as two years from now, replacing your $300 bicycle won't
>>>>> yet have crossed your mind.
>>>> You must be right. I still have the $96.50 bicycle I got in 1947.
>>>> Jerry
>>>> --
>>> How much does it weigh?
>> 28 pounds with fenders, carrier, and kick stand. Oh, yes, also the
>> generator and headlight and the "suitable warning device" that a
>> policeman made me install when, three mornings running, the same woman
>> ignored my stentorian warnings. Considering that I weigh about 180
>> pounds, ten pounds more or less makes little difference. (It's an
>> avinized Raleigh Lenton Clubman.)
>>
>> Jerry
>
> reminds me of last years tv from tour de france, two of the
> commentators
> rode up one of the mountain stages to show the route. one of the
> commentators
> has been in the Tour several times as a rider commented that it was
> harder than
> he remembered, but he also had about 20 more water bottles to drag up
> hill
>
> UCI sets a minium weight of around 15 pound for a bike

I used to hitch a folding two-wheel grocery wagon to my carrier and load
it full. Saddlebags hanging from the carrier and a carton on top let me
haul about 100 pounds of groceries up the hill home. (Before I had the
bike with a gearshift, I snapped a chain going up that hill with only
myself as load.) Weight matters when seconds do, otherwise, hardly at all.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Eric Jacobsen wrote:

...

> Holy crap, there's Lasse again! And we were just talking about the
> black list, too...

I guess you missed him the other day. I'm ashamed to say that I
neglected to greet him as you just did.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Eric Jacobsen wrote:

...

> Avinized? I'll have to remember that term.

Pardon my saying so, but it has more pizazz than jacobsonized. Most
every thing I use has been modifies to suit my taste or fancy.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Eric Jacobsen wrote:
> On 10/20/2009 11:43 AM, Jerry Avins wrote:
>> Bret Cahill wrote:
>>> Digital hearing aids seem to remain pretty pricy. Is anything else
>>> using DSP more expensive than a $300 laptop?
>>
>> Is the cost of a $300 laptop different from the cost of a $300 bicycle?
>>
>> Jerry
>
> But isn't the on-topic question which one has more cost from DSP?

Well, the DSP (if there is one) adds much less cost to the laptop than
the CPU does.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Oct 20, 1:12*pm, "Alexander Sotnikov" <sotni...@scideco.ru> wrote:
> These two are not consumer goods.

You are right. I read the message but not the subject. :-)

In consumer electronics the costs are pushed down by volume. But for
hearing aids, the volumes are probably not that high.

The cost of the products is anyway not dominated by the DSP in
consumer products. For example the bill of goods for the DSP platform
of a high end digital TV may come out at around $50 - $100, maybe even
less. One reason the industry is dying.

In the medical fields, the costs of the platforms may be much higher.


>
> >Medical ultrasound - $20,000
> >MRI - $20,000,000
>
> This is a bit closer to what Bret asked of:
> Sigma SD14 digital single-lens reflex camera. It costs about 700 USD at
> amazon.com and as far as I know it uses ADSP-BF561 for image processing.
> I guess that there are much more examples in the field of embedded
> multimedia systems.
>
> --
> Alexander