Sorry to take so long to respond--missed your post the first time around.
"Clay S. Turner" <
[email protected]> wrote in message
news:
[email protected]. ..
>
> "Jon Harris" <
[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:
[email protected]...
> >
> > I'm not sure if I agree with you here. I believe the feedback can happen
> > at the
> > frequency indicated by the round trip delay, _plus_ all harmonics (integer
> > multiples) of that frequency. So even if you add delay to move the
> > fundamental
> > feedback frequency to say 20 Hz, it can still oscillate at 40, 60, 80,
> > 100...
> > Hz. Hence adding the delay usually makes the problem even worse, because
> > the
> > system has more frequencies at which to oscillate (not to mention the echo
> > problem you mentioned).
>
> Jon,
>
> Certainly a bad amp (non-linear) can produce harmonics, but one hopes the
> round trip gain for the harmonics is less than one. But in extreme cases,
> yes a harmonic could be the cause of the feedback.
I think we have a slight disconnect here. I'm not talking about harmonics of
the signal generated due to system non-linearities. I was trying to say that in
an audio system, you are prone to oscillations at any integer-multiple of the
frequency indicated by the round-trip delay. "Integer multiple of the
fundamental frequency" is the idea I was trying to get across, and I used
harmonic as a short version of that, but I'm not talking about harmonics
generated due to distortion.
To clarify, let's take a simple example of a microphone-loudspeaker system that
is perfectly flat and linear and exhibits a pure 10ms round-trip delay (from
loudspeaker to microphone back to loudspeaker). Ten milliseconds corresponds to
100Hz, so a 100Hz sinewave played from the loudspeaker and heard by the
microphone will be perfectly in phase re-inforce itself perfectly. If the
system gain is near unity at 100Hz, you will start to hear ringing and if
increased further, eventually oscillation and run-away feedback. However, the
same thing could happen at 200 Hz. This waveform will have gone through 2
complete cycles and be back perfectly in phase after the 10ms round-trip delay.
Same for 300, 400, 500 ... Hz.
In fact, when you hear feedback in an acoustic system, it is typically at a
harmonic of the fundamental "round-trip" frequency. With typical
microphone-speaker distances and other delays, the fundamental frequencies are
generally so low (e.g. 20-40 Hz) that they aren't prone to oscillations due to
limited low-frequency response of the speakers and microphones (not to mention
intentional gain reduction at super-low frequncies). Feedback usually occurs in
the voice range (300-3kHz), since systems tend to have the highest gain in this
area, which is usually many times the round-trip delay.
> In fact certain crystal
> oscillators can be made to oscillate using a harmonic rather than the
> fundamental. Old style radio transmitters use frequency multiplication.
> But a higher than normal gain must be used to offset the lower harmonic
> production. A classic example is a HeNe laser. The highest gain for the
> HeNe system is in the infrared. But we are all used to seeing visible HeNe
> lasers. Basically the feedback mirrors aren't reflective at infrared. The
> gain of the laser comes from the length of the lasing medium itself. The
> minimum length for visible HeNe is about 10cm. But a HeNe laser can be made
> to function in the green (instead of the usual red) by using special
> mirrors, but the laser's cavity must be lengthend to provide enough gain to
> lase.
>
> If a long enough delay is added to force the fundamental oscillation mode to
> a frequency below what the system can reproduce, a much higher gain will be
> needed to make the system oscillate using a harmonic. (Harmonics are almost
> always weaker than what is causing them) The point I was getting at, is in a
> system that is starting to cause feedback oscillation, then a delay can
> solve the issue. It will certainly not solve all possible cases. Plus the
> echo will be problematic.
And that is where I again disagree. If what you said was true, you would never
hear feedback at large venues (football stadiums, etc.) because the
microphone-loudspeaker distances usually correspond to frequencies in the <20Hz
range. The audio system will happily oscillate at any of its harmonics where
the gain is at least unity, and so adding delay will not help with the problem
(other than making the build-up to run-away happen more slowly). In fact, the
more delay you add to your system the more unstable it is because more harmonics
are within the audio range and they are spaced closer together in frequency.
--
Jon Harris
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